Super Strength (again)

[David Johansen]

Okay, so here's a thought on a direct and simple way of making Super Strength work. No I don't agree with Super Effort. No I won't be convinced that a birdsnest of modifiers and extra tables is functional, elegant, or even decent game design. So let's leave the discussion of other methods of handling Super Strength out of this and stick to the notion.

If you played GURPS first edition you probably remember some races having a x2 Strength multiplier. Now when I look at GURPS and think about Super Strength I think that would be the simplest and most direct way of handling the matter. Enhanced Move already works this way. Super Effort already gives a curve where the Damage from Strength based attacks eventually becomes significantly cheaper than innate attacks.

So why not?

New Advantage

Enhanced Strength 100 points
Each level of Enhanced Strength doubles the character's Strength for all purposes except skill ratings, other advantages, and secondary characteristics like hit points. Enhanced Strength increases base lift and damage. It cannot be purchased with the Size limitation.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by David Johansen

Enhanced Strength 100 points
Each level of Enhanced Strength doubles the character's Strength for all purposes except skill ratings, other advantages, and secondary characteristics like hit points. Enhanced Strength increases base lift and damage. It cannot be purchased with the Size limitation.

If you double ST, and increase base damage commensurately, but don't double HP, you will quickly reach the point where two characters with superstrength can kill each other with one punch, and the only question will be who gets the first punch in.

Bill Stoddard

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by whswhs

If you double ST, and increase base damage commensurately, but don't double HP, you will quickly reach the point where two characters with superstrength can kill each other with one punch, and the only question will be who gets the first punch in.

Bill Stoddard

Not a worse problem than when using Super-Effort, though - after all, there you routinely get to a point where effective ST when using the extra effort is increased 10x as much as your HP. I guess one would compensate in the same way - by buying DR and/or Injury Tolerance (Damage Reduction) to match the increased damage potential.

Since both Tbone and I were both pegging the cost to move up one rank on the Speed/Range chart at 50 CP, and two levels there just about doubles everything, I guess 100 CP per level of his version is fair - except that we were including HP as well as Striking and Lifting ST in the equation. It's also more granular, where the other proposal allows for intermediate levels of ST more easily.

Wasn't Increased ST in older editions 50 CP/level, but linear (2x, 3x, 4x, etc.)?

[Mailanka]

I've been seriously toying with dropping ST to 2 points per level after 30.

I don't think I've seen anyone seriously consider raising any of the other stats higher than 30. 20 is the general max (especially regarding defaults), but you do see some 20+ stats because of penalties. The largest single penalty is -10, so there's seldom a need to go higher than 30.

Thus, as others have said, after a certain point how much you can lift is more for showing off than anything else, and you need your damage to track more-or-less with Crushing Innate Attacks (which is 5 per die), while acknowledging that base strength is worth more (because it can grapple and stab and throw, etc).

So, I think 30+, 2 points per ST gives you approximately 20 points per +1D, which is about 4x the crushing innate attack, and thus viable.

However, Bill's comment about HP gives me pause. The "elegance" of the Super Strength is that it does increase HP, just more slowly, as your character gains strength. Making ST (inclusive with HP) cheap gives characters hundreds of HP, which is a bad idea. Removing HP from the equation completely gets super-heroes who kill each other with one shot and don't increase their "slam" strength along with their striking strength.

Hmmm.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

I've been seriously toying with dropping ST to 2 points per level after 30.

An you just create 'name how much you lift and damage' for free as all they need to do is by back as many HP as they by leve3l of ST at you reduce cost.

[The Colonel]

While we're at it, have we yet decided how much ST you need to pull an average person's head off?

[David L Pulver]

Originally Posted by whswhs

If you double ST, and increase base damage commensurately, but don't double HP, you will quickly reach the point where two characters with superstrength can kill each other with one punch, and the only question will be who gets the first punch in.

Bill Stoddard

May as well double HP as well (:

The basic problem is that ST is c. 100 points per die of damage, Striking Strength is circa 50 points per die, and Innate Attack is circa 5 points per die.

My own preference: *in a supers setting* normal ST costs 10 points per +4 ST, Striking ST is 5 point per +4 ST, and Extra HP are 2 point *per 8 HP*. This only applies to buying them up, not down. In practical terms, take the existing characters and:

If (ST or HP) is 11, apply the following:
New ST (or HP) = (Old ST-10) x 4 or (old HP-10) x 4.

This keeps STR at a slight disadvantage to a raw innate attack, but prevents it being a stupid choice as it can do more (use with weapons).

This has two advantages:

(a) It fixes the obvious problem of balance.
(b) It allows simple conversion of characters to the linear formula.

Because it's a simple relationship, you can convert straight off. It basically means that all the Batman and Daredevil types can get ST 18 for the price of ST 12, but this is in genre based on their attributes. And because it's a dead easy across the board conversion, it lets you convert back and forth too and from normal GURPS rules or existing supplements. You can treat it as an effect of whatever strange physics allow superpowers to exist, and if you port the characters to another world, either divide back or keep them...

[vitruvian]

I'm still liking the 'integral' logarithmic fix first suggested on, I believe, Tbone's site. Forget by whom.

ST starts at 10. Each 50 points buys you a step up on the Speed/Range progression, including HP. Intermediate values are prorated. So, 50 points gets you to 15, 100 points gets you to 20 - within 'normal human' values you buy ST normally. But from there it gets cheaper - 150 points gets you ST 30 (5 pts per +1), 200 points to ST 50, 250 to ST 70 (2.5 pts per +1), 300 points to ST 100. Every 300 points gets you x10 ST and x100 lifting.

Obviously, 'selling back' HP at 2 pts per no longer works once the incremental cost gets too low; make 'No HP' a -20% limitation instead. However, don't make 'HP Only' a -80% limitation, because that would seriously undervalue what those HP are worth, and make it too much cheaper than IT:DR; make it -50%. I'd suggest -50% for Striking ST Only, -70% for Lifting ST Only, to keep the same relative costs.

You can play the same trick with Innate Attack, TK, DR, and similar leveled traits. A leveled trait that starts out costing 5 pts/+1 will end up costing the same as RAW up 30 levels. If you like those costs and the 50 pts/bump on the chart thing, make Innate Attack types other than Burning and Crushing enhancements on one or the other rather than separate base costs.

Anyway, with the limitation values I've suggested, ST never actually 'catches up' with Innate Attack in terms of points for damage-dealing ability, but an extra 300 pts spent on ST evens things up pretty well, and the bricks and archetypes are getting additional durability as well. If you limit to Striking ST only, you end up getting cheaper than comparable Innate Attacks past a certain point, but that's what campaign limits on damage dice are for.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by David L Pulver

May as well double HP as well (:

The basic problem is that ST is c. 100 points per die of damage, Striking Strength is circa 50 points per die, and Innate Attack is circa 5 points per die.

My own preference: *in a supers setting* normal ST costs 10 points per +4 ST, Striking ST is 5 point per +4 ST, and Extra HP are 2 point *per 8 HP*. This only applies to buying them up, not down. In practical terms, take the existing characters and:

If (ST or HP) is 11, apply the following:
New ST (or HP) = (Old ST-10) x 4 or (old HP-10) x 4.

This keeps STR at a slight disadvantage to a raw innate attack, but prevents it being a stupid choice as it can do more (use with weapons).

Your ST isn't really at a slight Disad because of the HP you get when you buy a D of ST damage (and which you are apparently not allowed to buy down again or at least not at regular price).

Spend 50pts and get +20 ST (including 20 HP worth 40 pts at normal cost). This is okay as long as you really want the extra HP. I think Bricks really should have a lot of HP. It's one of the ways of trying to deal with the massive damage modern weapons do.

After the HP you're spending 5 pts per D of damage and getting the Lift for free.

Doesn't actually bother me. It's about what I think Lifting ST is worth. Yes, I know there are ways to use Lift to do damage. They generally give little or no advantage over simply punching the target and can be folded into what you're paying for the punching IMHO. David doesn't seem to be trying to sell separate Lifting ST in this paradigm anyway.

Theoretically you're still getting to do Imp or cut with weapons but a little above ST 30 that segues into the problems with the MinST rules and the damage cap at 3x MinSt.

That's another can of worms, but without some solution it sharply limits the utility of normal melee weapons to the Transhuman (c. ST30) rather than the Superhuman.

There are ways around that too (arbitrarily large Gadas, +SM weapons from DF, etc) but they tend to complexity and indirectness.

Even using rules from Low Tech 3e (which may or may not be similar to what gets published eventually in the 4e version) my best guess at the MinSt for Thor's Hammer (as depicted in the Marvel comics) is "only" around 50 (maybe 100 if URU is extraordianrily dense).

Again to match the Marvel version's lift stats (and coincidentally some damage capacity against things like concrete walls) I think you're going to need ST in the low to mid 400s.

[David Johansen]

Mind you, my solution probably requires other advantages for proper scaling.

Enhanced Attack at around 100 points per x 2 damage
Enhanced Defense at around 10 per x2 dr
Enhanced Hit Points at around 5 per x 2 hp

But let me ask you this. Is 1d of an attack really worth as much when the leap is made from 1000d to 1001d as it is when the leap is made from 1d to 2d?