Regenerative Ablative DR

[KlausPrinceOfTheUndeads]

First of all, choose which DR you want: Ablative or Semi-Ablative. Then choose a regeneration rate under Regeneration (B80): your DR "heals" at this rate. Halve Regeneration point cost and apply it as a limitation of the Ablative or Semi-Ablative limitation to get your final discount.

Example I: A battle droid is surrounded by a force field that absorbes energy attacks and dissipates rapidly the accumulated energy. It has a Semi-Ablative DR that regenerates at a rate of 1 point per second, like Fast Regeneration; the appropriate advantage is worth 100 point, so it acts as a 50% limitation on Semi-Ablative. The value of the droid's Semi-Ablative limitation is -10%.
Example II: A super has an organic armor that heals after being "wounded". That's Ablative DR, regenerating itself by 1 point per 12 hours. This is Slow Regeneration, worth 10 points, so it acts as a -5% limitation on Ablative, worth -76% for the super.

If you already have any level of Regeneration, but your DR "heals" faster, use the difference between your Regeneration and your DR's one to obtain the limitation on Ablative/Semi Ablative.

Is this fair?

[cccwebs]

I'd say not fair.

If you want Regeneration to only affect the armor, then use an Accessability limitation to the Regeneration to restrict it to the armor. The value of the limitation will be extremely variable depending on the maximum DR you allow in your game. (a supers game with high levels of DR should only allow maybe a -40% to -50% at most, where a fantasy game with low DR might allow up to a -10% or -20% limitation)

If done your way, it throws off the point costs drastically. In your example, the battle droid having a DR 100 would cost 450 points for the armor, but if bought "normally" it could have Very Fast Regeneration [100] and DR (semi-ablative) 100 [400] for a total of 500 points, or only 50 points difference. Now if that Armor was only DR 10 it would cost 45 points your way, but "normally" cost 100 points for the regeneration and 40 points for the DR. The value of the regeneration changes drastically. For the 100 DR the value of the Regeneration is about 50% (or a -50% limitation) of what it normally costs to just affect the armor, yet for the DR 10 the value of the Regeneration is 5% (or a -95% limitation!!) of what it normally cost. Both have the same effect, if actually the DR 10 (semi-ablative) is actually "worth" more in the low tech setting as the damage output is typically scaled down also.

To expand out a little, under your method the semi-ablative regenerative DR of 200 would cost 900 points, exactly the same as buying the regeneration for 100 points and the semi-ablative DR for 800 points. Buying the DR to 300 points your way will cost 1350 points whic is more expensive than the 1300 points it would cost normally (100 for the regeneration and 1200 points for the DR)

[transmetahuman]

Originally Posted by cccwebs

I'd say not fair.

If you want Regeneration to only affect the armor, then use an Accessability limitation to the Regeneration to restrict it to the armor. The value of the limitation will be extremely variable depending on the maximum DR you allow in your game. (a supers game with high levels of DR should only allow maybe a -40% to -50% at most, where a fantasy game with low DR might allow up to a -10% or -20% limitation)

If done your way, it throws off the point costs drastically. In your example, the battle droid having a DR 100 would cost 450 points for the armor, but if bought "normally" it could have Very Fast Regeneration [100] and DR (semi-ablative) 100 [400] for a total of 500 points, or only 50 points difference. Now if that Armor was only DR 10 it would cost 45 points your way, but "normally" cost 100 points for the regeneration and 40 points for the DR. The value of the regeneration changes drastically. For the 100 DR the value of the Regeneration is about 50% (or a -50% limitation) of what it normally costs to just affect the armor, yet for the DR 10 the value of the Regeneration is 5% (or a -95% limitation!!) of what it normally cost. Both have the same effect, if actually the DR 10 (semi-ablative) is actually "worth" more in the low tech setting as the damage output is typically scaled down also.

To expand out a little, under your method the semi-ablative regenerative DR of 200 would cost 900 points, exactly the same as buying the regeneration for 100 points and the semi-ablative DR for 800 points. Buying the DR to 300 points your way will cost 1350 points whic is more expensive than the 1300 points it would cost normally (100 for the regeneration and 1200 points for the DR)

He's putting the limition ("Regenerative") on the limitation (Ablative or Semi-Ablative). The cost can never be higher than the cost of straight DR, and never lower than the cost of Semi-/Ablative DR would be, straight. I like it, myself.

Edit, after playing with numbers... and then a re-edit, after it was pointed out that semi-ablative is -20%, not -40%. D'oh!:

Heals_______Semi-Abl_____Ablative
1/day__________4__________1 (Normal semi-/ablat, without regen)
1/12 hours______4.05_______1.2
1/hour_________4.125_______1.5
1/minute_______4.375_______2
1/second_______4.5_________3
10/second______4.75________4
(All, instantly)___5__________5 (Normal DR, non-ablative)

I'm a little leery of the 10/second regeneration unless it's in a mega-damage game. Shaving a whole point off DR for the dubious limitation that it might be slightly lower if you hit it with lots and lots of damage in the turn immediately after you hit it with lots and lots of damage seems too much. Great idea if you tweek the numbers a little, though, and I'm fine with the lower levels of regen.

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by transmetahuman

He's putting the limition ("Regenerative") on the limitation (Ablative or Semi-Ablative). The cost can never be higher than the cost of straight DR, and never lower than the cost of Semi-/Ablative DR would be, straight. I like it, myself.

Edit, after playing with numbers:

Heals_______Semi-Abl_____Ablative
1/day__________3__________1 (Normal semi-/ablat, without regen)
1/12 hours______3.1________1.2
1/hour_________3.25________1.5
1/minute_______3.5_________2
1/second_______4___________3
10/second______4.5_________4
(All, instantly)___5__________5 (Normal DR, non-ablative)

I'm a little leery of the 10/second regeneration unless it's in a mega-damage game. Shaving a whole point off DR for the dubious limitation that it might be slightly lower if you hit it with lots and lots of damage in the turn immediately after you hit it with lots and lots of damage seems too much. Great idea if you tweek the numbers a little, though, and I'm fine with the lower levels of regen.

Firt, there's an error in your semi ablative colum, semi ablative is a -20% limitation, not a -40% limitation.

Why? it makes DR worth a lot less IMHO, since once it has been breached, it remains breached, while normal DR works always, against all atttacks.

Consider you take DR 5 in a fantasy game, with the regenerative (10/seccond) ablative limitation. Your opponent rapìd strikes you, and gets both attacks to hit (or you're facing 2 opponents, or he has extra attack). Hi irst attack does 4 damage, and your DR absorbs it. The other attack does 4 more damage, taking down your DR and doing 3 damage to you. Now the 5 points you saved by getting regenerative ablative DR hurt don't they?

I would question them on semi-ablative, since it's harder to lower. but again you save a lot less points ;)

[KlausPrinceOfTheUndeads]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

Firt, there's an error in your semi ablative colum, semi ablative is a -20% limitation, not a -40% limitation.

Why? it makes DR worth a lot less IMHO, since once it has been breached, it remains breached, while normal DR works always, against all atttacks.

Consider you take DR 5 in a fantasy game, with the regenerative (10/seccond) ablative limitation. Your opponent rapìd strikes you, and gets both attacks to hit (or you're facing 2 opponents, or he has extra attack). Hi irst attack does 4 damage, and your DR absorbs it. The other attack does 4 more damage, taking down your DR and doing 3 damage to you. Now the 5 points you saved by getting regenerative ablative DR hurt don't they?

I would question them on semi-ablative, since it's harder to lower. but again you save a lot less points ;)

Yes, but you don't have to wait 5 days in order to get your full DR back. Also, why to take a DR regenerations of 10/ second with a DR of 5? Take 1/second, is better. ;)
P.S. I know, I know, Rapid Strike...but how many opponents have such a skill to make a Rapid Strike each turn and hit with both attacks? Such an opponent probably would not mind of your DR 5.

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by KlausPrinceOfTheUndeads

Yes, but you don't have to wait 5 days in order to get your full DR. Also, why to take a DR regenerations of 10/ second with a DR of 5? Take 1/second, is better. ;)
P.S. I know, I know, Rapid Strike...but how many opponents have such a skill to make a Rapid Strike each turn and hit with both attacks? Such an opponent probably would not mind of your DR 5.

first at all, I took DR 5 so it was something on the power level of most fantasy games, substitute it with DR 10 for the example, and it workes exactly the same, as long as 2 attacks will do more than DR+1 damage.

As for the rapid strike thing? replace rapid strike with AOA (Double) and you've got a mook that can go through your r.a. DR when he would be stopped by regular DR. And you save 10 points from a 50 point purchase. Replace it with a RoF weapon, and it suddenly goes from protecting you from the whole blast to having it hurt a little less. Replace it with 2 oponents, and you'll see how the efectiveness of your DR drops.

Oh, and regen 1/s is not that much of a good deal, it means that you save 2 points per level of DR, but that after a successfull hit or 2, you're reduced to DR 1.

Again, I don't find it overpowewring at all with ablative DR, only with semi-ablative, and then the savings are so small that I don't think it would matter. You save 5%, or 0.25 points per level of DR. Only when you get to crazy amountsof DR, where the regenerative (10/sec) semi-ablative limitation will start to be a real hinderance you'll save more than a couple of points. Still, the same could be said about semi-ablative DR in the first place.

[cccwebs]

Originally Posted by transmetahuman

He's putting the limition ("Regenerative") on the limitation (Ablative or Semi-Ablative). The cost can never be higher than the cost of straight DR, and never lower than the cost of Semi-/Ablative DR would be, straight. I like it, myself.

Edit, after playing with numbers... and then a re-edit, after it was pointed out that semi-ablative is -20%, not -40%. D'oh!:

Heals_______Semi-Abl_____Ablative
1/day__________4__________1 (Normal semi-/ablat, without regen)
1/12 hours______4.05_______1.2
1/hour_________4.125_______1.5
1/minute_______4.375_______2
1/second_______4.5_________3
10/second______4.75________4
(All, instantly)___5__________5 (Normal DR, non-ablative)

I'm a little leery of the 10/second regeneration unless it's in a mega-damage game. Shaving a whole point off DR for the dubious limitation that it might be slightly lower if you hit it with lots and lots of damage in the turn immediately after you hit it with lots and lots of damage seems too much. Great idea if you tweek the numbers a little, though, and I'm fine with the lower levels of regen.

Sure, the OP is putting the "limitation on the limitation", but in essence he is modifing the value of the Regeneration advantage. While the OP's method does work initially, there is no consistancy in the "value" as the DR increases. Since these boards are so fond of "charts", let me demonstrate again, in chart format instead of in a paragraph. For clarity, the OP "style" cost will be using half the Regeneration cost as a limitation on the Semi-ablative limitation and the "Normal" style will the total cost of the Regeneration and the DR with the Semi-Ablative option. The Regeneration is Very Fast for 100 points.

DR, OP "style" cost, "Normal" style cost
1, 5, 104
10, 45, 140
100, 450, 500
200, 900, 900
300, 1350, 1300
500, 2250, 2100
1000, 4500, 4100

As we can see, there is a great cost savings at low levels, but the actual savings is variable to the amount of DR purchased, and once DR 200 is reached it becomes more expensive to gain a lesser benefit (only the DR regenerates vs DR and HP) by using the OP's suggested idea. This is why I don't think that the OP's method is a fair way of modeling what he wants to do.

If we use DR with the Ablative option and the same methods as above we get
DR, OP style cost, "normal" style cost
1, 3, 101
10, 30, 110
50, 150, 150
100, 300, 200
1000, 3000, 1100

This is even more of a difference as DR rises, with a DR of 50 being the break-even point.

I have really got to learn the codes to make a table on this board.

[KlausPrinceOfTheUndeads]

Damn! You are terribly right... Any idea how to fix?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by KlausPrinceOfTheUndeads

Damn! You are terribly right... Any idea how to fix?

Unless dealing with DR 200+ (really, 150+) characters, I wouldn't bother. To be honest, the fact that the standard way of buying the effect has a different cost than the limitation you give doesn't mean the the limitation isn't fairly priced -- it might mean that the cost of the standard method isn't fair.

[cccwebs]

Originally Posted by KlausPrinceOfTheUndeads

Damn! You are terribly right... Any idea how to fix?

I originally recommended:

Originally Posted by cccwebs

If you want Regeneration to only affect the armor, then use an Accessability limitation to the Regeneration to restrict it to the armor. The value of the limitation will be extremely variable depending on the maximum DR you allow in your game. (a supers game with high levels of DR should only allow maybe a -40% to -50% at most, where a fantasy game with low DR might allow up to a -10% or -20% limitation)

But, after further consideration you may just want to go with a -50% Accessibility limitation (only for DR) on Regeneration. (I'd say closer to -50%) Now, in a Supers campaign with high damage outputs and players using Ablative DR as a low-cost version of HP, I might not allow for Regeneration to be purchased for the DR only at all. (unless we're talking the Battle Driod/force field scenario, and in that case I'd say it may be worth -25% limitation)