Skill Adaptation and Combat/Art/Sport

[pawsplay]

So, the rules are set up such that you can do, say Skill Adaptation (Acrobatic Feints) or Skill Adaptation (Brawling techniques default to Karate).

Skill Adaptation (Katana defaults to Katana Art)

Thoughts? Reactions?

[Joseph R]

That isn't required.

EDIT: What I mean is, that such Techniques default to the Art/Sport version of a combat skill anyway. That is why Skill Adaptation perk is not needed for such instance.

[pawsplay]

Ah, but you would eliminate the -3 penalty.

[Joseph R]

Originally Posted by pawsplay

Ah, but you would eliminate the -3 penalty.

I think we might be talking at crossed-purposes here.

My understanding of the Skill Adaptation perk is that it simply "unlocks" a Technique or group of Techniques for a skill that would not normally be allowed to be the default for such Technique(s). The technique itself still needs to be "learned" as usual by putting the points into it.

The Art/Sport skills can already be the default for any Technique that is valid for the combat version. Just base the Technique off the Art or Sport skill directly if that's what you want - you don't need the perk for this.

[pawsplay]

Currently, Broadsword defaults to Broadsword Art -3. Skill Adaptation (Broadsword to Broadsword Art) means Broadsword techniques default to Broadsword Art. You seem to be thinking I mean Technique Adaptation or something.

[Joseph R]

See p. MA64 - combat Art/Sport skills are a specific case.

You can already base any Technique that is valid for the Broadsword skill off Broadsword Art or Broadsword Sport directly should you so wish.

A hypothetical Perk of "Skill Adaptation (Broadsword to Broadsword Art)" would not achieve anything extra - it would be a wasted CP, surely?

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Unwitting Pawn

I think we might be talking at crossed-purposes here.

My understanding of the Skill Adaptation perk is that it simply "unlocks" a Technique or group of Techniques for a skill that would not normally be allowed to be the default for such Technique(s). The technique itself still needs to be "learned" as usual by putting the points into it.

Kind of. But techniques have defaults, at which which you can use them without putting any points into them. So you could also say skill adaptation allows a skill to be used for things it couldn't be used for before. The fact that a technique comes from a skill to which the skill you are adapting it to has a default does not actually matter. Indeed given that the techniques are supposed to be borrowed from related skills, it will often be the case that there is a double default path that already lets you try them.

Imagine two hypothetical flashy but fairly easy Katana Art moves (let's make up suitably silly names, Seven Drunken Butterflies, and Mountains Flee Dragons) that you normally roll against Katana Art -0 to pull off without looking ridiculous. Somebody with Katana skill could, after having seen it, try either at Katana -3 -0. It would be legitimate for the GM to allow the Skill Adaptation (Butterflies defaults to Katana) for one point. This would allow you to try Butterflies at Katana -0, but still be limited to Katana -3 for Mountains.

What the OP wants to do is replace the default for the entire skill with a Skill Adaptation Perk, so the 1 point would allow both (and every other possible Katana Art move) at -0. This could work the way he wants it to. It's also something no competent GM would allow in the same game as the skill to skill default.

You could call it an attempt at a munchkin exploit. And given the direction he wants it to go, it probably is. But if it went the other way, it might be a harder call. It is possible to argue the Combat Art or Sport forms are simply too expensive. After all buying one up to match your Katana level costs 12 points. And that potentially applies to every different Katana Art that exists in the setting, and there might well be half a dozen distinct forms. I can't see any PC buying up more than one.

Personally I wouldn't go so far as 1 point, but I think you could make a good case for treating each art as a Technique of the combat skill, at say -3, and buy it up from there. This would actually allow more flexibility in skill levels. Artists who are really good at the art but still lousy at combat become possible. For example you could buy 1 point worth of Katana and put 11 points into the Art technique for, say, Katana-10 and Katana Art -18, instead of putting the 12 points into the art for Katana Art -14 defaulting to Katana -11. It also allows for artistic Martial Arts that never, ever, teach you anything that improves your combat effectiveness - the point in base skill is all you ever learn, everything else goes to buy up the useless artistic technique. Gives a different feel and you might actually see combat monster PCs drop some points into the art forms when the minimum investment for them is no longer 4 points.

[Joseph R]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Kind of.

Please see my later post, which I think is a better explanation of what I was trying to say in this thread.

Imagine two hypothetical flashy but fairly easy Katana Art moves (let's make up suitably silly names, Seven Drunken Butterflies, and Mountains Flee Dragons) that you normally roll against Katana Art -0 to pull off without looking ridiculous. Somebody with Katana skill could, after having seen it, try either at Katana -3 -0. It would be legitimate for the GM to allow the Skill Adaptation (Butterflies defaults to Katana) for one point. This would allow you to try Butterflies at Katana -0, but still be limited to Katana -3 for Mountains.

Not really. No perk of Skill Adaptation would be needed in this case either, as under the RAW, any Art/Sport technique automatically defaults to combat skill at the same -value. Only if the PC tries to use it for actual non-combat purposes (or non-performance purposes for an Art skill, or non-sport competitions for a Sport skill, of course) would the further -3 apply. And if you want to buy off that -3, then Skill Adaptation perk is not the way to do it. Better to name the perk something else entirely if we must have one, as it would avoid confusion.

What the OP wants to do is replace the default for the entire skill with a Skill Adaptation Perk, so the 1 point would allow both (and every other possible Katana Art move) at -0. This could work the way he wants it to. It's also something no competent GM would allow in the same game as the skill to skill default.

You could call it an attempt at a munchkin exploit. And given the direction he wants it to go, it probably is.

Indeed. If the GM is of such a mind that buying off the -3 default for each Art/Sport skill costs too much CP, then it is far better to simply use the combat skill for all three purposes as suggested in MA.

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by pawsplay

So, the rules are set up such that you can do, say Skill Adaptation (Acrobatic Feints) or Skill Adaptation (Brawling techniques default to Karate).

Skill Adaptation (Katana defaults to Katana Art)

Thoughts? Reactions?

From PU2 (emphisis theirs):

... You can learn techniques that don't default to a skill as if they did, ...

Since Martial Arts says that every technique of the combat skill belongs to both the art and sport forms (and that they get a special default), there are no missing techniques for you to transfer from the combat form to the sport or art form.

[Joseph R]

Originally Posted by Dinadon

Since Martial Arts says that every technique of the combat skill belongs to both the art and sport forms (and that they get a special default), there are no missing techniques for you to transfer from the combat form to the sport or art form.

Thank you. This is what I've been trying to explain.