Advice for Creating D&D 3.5 Characters

[DAT]

First, some background.

Many many years ago, I cut my role-playing teeth on D&D, then moved to AD&D, which I played for ~10 years. Then I moved over to GURPS and have been happily playing it for the last 18+ years.

Recently, I’ve been invited to join a gaming group that is playing D&D 3.5. They are starting up a new campaign with 1st level characters July 25th.

The rest of the party will include:
A Human Ranger,
A Human Cleric,
A Human Wizard, and
A Human Warmage.

So a rogue or additional fighter type would be useful for the party.

The two character concepts I’m considering are:
1) An explorer/treasure hunter skilled at finding traps, detecting ambushes, and sneaking about unseen/unheard in dungeons, i.e., a Rogue or Rogue-combo.
2) A naïve wanderer, from an isolated community, out to experience the wider world and who is trained with both a blade and spells, i.e., a Fighter-MagicUser type.

The DM said he will allow any race from the published books.

The DM’s policy for rolling up ability scores is to roll three sets of six 3d6 numbers, select one set, and arrange the numbers as you like. The sets I rolled (using the DM’s spread sheet) are:
Set 1: 18,17,15,15,15,7
Set 2: 17,16,15,14,13,13
Set 3: 17,15,15,13,13,12

So with the above information and the intent of creating a character for the July 25th game, I borrowed a 3.5 Player’s Handbook (actually a Player’s Handbook II and later found some down loads of the Player’s Handbook I from the WoTC web site) and some supplements (Complete Adventurer, Complete Arcane, Complete Warrior, Races of Destiny, Races of Stone, and Races of the Wild) and started reading.

After scanning over everything, I’ve decided two things:
1) There is an INSANE amount of new rules/classes/feats/skills/prestige classes and options for using them that I’m totally unfamiliar with, and
2) I need some help/advice.

The help I’m looking for is to have a competent character (one that can contribute to the party and be successful in his niche) and to have a general idea of his plan for advancement (assuming he survives).

Now for the questions and advice:
[Note: I'll be checking with the DM on everything, but I wanted to gather some of the Hivemind/Collective's wisdom first, since the DM is not availble till next week.]

1) For the first character concept, I wasn’t sure if a pure Rogue or a Rogue-Combo (e.g., Fighter-Rogue) would make more sense. Any advice/thoughts? Any ideas for a better class? Is multi-class a bad idea in 3.5?

2) For the second character concept, I thought the Duskblade class (PHB II, pg 19) looked neat, but wasn’t sure how it would compare to a Fighter-Wizard, Fighter-Sorcerer, Hexblade, or any of the other Fighter-MagicUser type class. Any advice/thoughts?

3) What about race for the character? For the first concept, I was thinking something with low light (Elf or Gnome) or dark vision (Dwarf or Whisper Gnome (RoS, pg 95)). For the second concept, an Elf or Human. Any advice/thoughts?

4) What are people’s thoughts on the sets of rolls for the abilities? Is the first set with the high of 18 and low of 7 better or worst than the second set with a high of only 17 but the low is 13?

5) What are people’s recommendations for assigning the numbers to the abilities for the two concepts? How about with the added complication of Racial modifiers?

6) What are people’s recommendations for assigning/selecting skills for the two concepts? (I saw some good advice for a Rogue in the thread Blood Legend started)

7) What are people’s recommendations for selecting Feats for the two concepts?

8) What are recommendations for selecting weapons for the two concepts? (e.g., what is so good about a Gnome's hooked hammer?)

9) For future advancement, any advice for selecting a Prestige Class or not? For the first concept, what do you think about plans to eventually take the path of a Dungeon Delver or maybe a Thief-Acrobat (assuming I correctly understand how Prestige Classes work)?

10) Anything else I should ask about?

Thanks.
-DAT

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by DAT

The rest of the party will include:
A Human Ranger,
A Human Cleric,
A Human Wizard, and
A Human Warmage.


The two character concepts I’m considering are:
1) An explorer/treasure hunter skilled at finding traps, detecting ambushes, and sneaking about unseen/unheard in dungeons, i.e., a Rogue or Rogue-combo.
2) A naïve wanderer, from an isolated community, out to experience the wider world and who is trained with both a blade and spells, i.e., a Fighter-MagicUser type.


Set 1: 18,17,15,15,15,7
Set 2: 17,16,15,14,13,13
Set 3: 17,15,15,13,13,12

1) For the first character concept, I wasn’t sure if a pure Rogue or a Rogue-Combo (e.g., Fighter-Rogue) would make more sense. Any advice/thoughts? Any ideas for a better class? Is multi-class a bad idea in 3.5?

2) For the second character concept, I thought the Duskblade class (PHB II, pg 19) looked neat, but wasn’t sure how it would compare to a Fighter-Wizard, Fighter-Sorcerer, Hexblade, or any of the other Fighter-MagicUser type class. Any advice/thoughts?

3) What about race for the character? For the first concept, I was thinking something with low light (Elf or Gnome) or dark vision (Dwarf or Whisper Gnome (RoS, pg 95)). For the second concept, an Elf or Human. Any advice/thoughts?

4) What are people’s thoughts on the sets of rolls for the abilities? Is the first set with the high of 18 and low of 7 better or worst than the second set with a high of only 17 but the low is 13?

5) What are people’s recommendations for assigning the numbers to the abilities for the two concepts? How about with the added complication of Racial modifiers?

6) What are people’s recommendations for assigning/selecting skills for the two concepts? (I saw some good advice for a Rogue in the thread Blood Legend started)

7) What are people’s recommendations for selecting Feats for the two concepts?

8) What are recommendations for selecting weapons for the two concepts? (e.g., what is so good about a Gnome's hooked hammer?)

9) For future advancement, any advice for selecting a Prestige Class or not? For the first concept, what do you think about plans to eventually take the path of a Dungeon Delver or maybe a Thief-Acrobat (assuming I correctly understand how Prestige Classes work)?

10) Anything else I should ask about?

Thanks.
-DAT

1. In your situation I would go for a pure Rogue. It's what your group needs most and simplicity the first time out is best.

2. As far as I can tell all Fighter-Wizard classes are dubious in performance. You end up trying to mix one class that has (but also needs) lots of HP with another class to whom armor is undesirable (arcane spell failure). I can only say to first pick one of the classes that allows light armor and then choose between them on the basis to which of their main shticks you like best. Duskblade is probably the best that you've mentioned but suffers from some diminished Fighter abilities. 3.5 doesn't really reward generalization of lack of focus.

3. For the rogue you want Elf (even thoguh it has only Low Light Vision instead of Infravision). Far more important is that Elf boosts DEX and 3 of your critical Skills. For a Duskblade it probably doesn't matter. You might want to go Human for the extra Feat and Skill pt.

4. For the Rogue take set 1 and dump the 7 in Cha. You'll be handicapping some important skills but Clerics can take Diplomacy as a Class Skill and be pretty good with it. For the Duskblade take set 2 probably.

5. For the Elven Rogue put the 18 ->20 in DX and the 17 in Int probably. Rogues get lots of Skill pts but they need lots too. For the Duskblade put the 17 in ST. For both arrange the rest as you want but remember that Con is for HP _and_ the very important Fort Save and Wis is the base for several important Skills as well as the Will Save.

6. For the Rogue, Search first then Disable Device and Open Locks. You'll be the only one with Trapfinding ability. For the Duskblade it doesn't matter so much. Do get your Climb up to a net +5 so you can do Rope and Wall climbs safely. Do the rest at your discretion.

7. For the Rogue you could start with Vexing Flanker from PHB II first. Flanking people is your bread and butter in combat and the 2 pt bonus is nice. Your next Feat would be either Adaptable Flanker (also PHB II) or Weapon Finesse. For a Duskblade try some basics like Weapon Focus and Dodge.

8. Nothing is so good about a Gnomish Hooked Hammer unless you're a bizarre fighter specialized in Two-weapon Fighting and I proved Crit. For the Rogue you might as well start with a Rapier and sling and buy better stuff (possible composite short bow) later. Duskblade, I dunno. Choose between a sword and shield combo or a greatsword. One for defense the other for damage.

9. I would avoid Prestige classes on your first character. Few are worth a damn and the ones that are achieve this by specializing and you don't know what you want to specialize in yet.

10. Alchemist Fire and quite possibly save it until you see your first swarm. It's so-so most of the time but can save your bacon against a swarm which can be a huge threat to a low level character otherwise.

[Flyerfan1991]

My advice is that if the choices allowed out of all the published books (I presume WotC ones) are a bit too bewildering, go for the KISS principle and go with a Rogue. Rogues tend to be very malleable, and you can have your Rogue be a sneaky type whose still very naive; you know, the type who can sneak around and be very knowledgeable about the local village, but when he/she gets out into the wide world is pretty darned naive. That doesn't mean that the sneaking and Rogue-ish skills can't be used in the wide world, but rather that the Rogue doesn't realize that things (politics, etc.) don't operate in the same way as they do in his/her village.

As for your rolls, you lucky dog. I want your dice.

One thing I do want to ask about is whether the group your about to join will mesh well with your playing style. My group plays more role playing (almost too much role playing and not enough doing, IMHO), but my brother-in-law's group tends more toward hack-n-slash, although not purely so.

--Mike L.

[warmachine]

1. Pure Rogue better matches your concept. Multiclassing with Rogue can work but Fighter-Rogue gravitates toward more combat techniques (works well with archery) but that's not your stated character concept.

2. Never, ever multi-class primary spellcaster classes. Especially when Duskblade matches what you want.

3. Halflings make better Rogues than Gnomes. Dwarves have slower movement, which stings for a Rogue. I prefer Elves for their DEX and detect secret doors. As for Duskblades, use Humans over Elves as the bonus feat is better for the class than the Elf abilities.

4. Go for the first set of stats. Putting the 18 instead of 17 into your primary stat is vital. For Rogue, that's DEX. For Duskblade, that's STR. The 7 goes into a dump stat, one you need the least. For Rogue, that's STR or CHA. For Duskblade, that's CHA.

5. Put your best stats in the following order. Rogue: DEX, INT, CON, WIS, CHA, STR. The last three really depend on character concept but as you want an observant type, not a smooth talker nor sneak attacker, it's WIS first. Duskblade: STR, INT, CON, DEX, WIS, CHA.

6. Rogue: Search, Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently, Open Locks, Disable Device, Tumble, Use Magical Device, Escape. Duskblade: whatever looks cool. Maybe Ride and Intimidate.

7. Rogue: Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse. Getting that Sneak Damage because the enemy hasn't acted yet in the first round is hilarious. Duskblade: Power Attack, Cleave. Standard with two-handed weapons.

8. Rogue: Rapier and Shortbow (Elf uses Longsword and Composite Longbow). Duskblade: Two-handed Sword.

9. I haven't seen those Prestige classes. I don't think any Prestige class works with Duskblade. Check the maths carefully, including what you're giving up with the base class. PrCs range from total suck to blatantly broken.

10. Ask the Ranger and Cleric players for the melee capabilities of their PCs. If they're not taking melee capable characters, it'll be up to you stop the enemy whacking the arcane spellcasters. Suggest that, with a Warmage, archer Rangers aren't vital. Generally, go for one tank and a back up melee fighter. Two weapon Rangers and Clerics make back up fighters but not tanks. Duskblades make good tanks. Two back up fighters and a sneak attack Rogue could work.

Check PC (and player) backstory, pesonalty, alignment and Cleric god for clashes. PCs that are automatically required to hate each other can occasionally happen.

[Expendable]

pathguy has a D&D 3.5 Character Generator web site you can use. It may take a while to load but it's worth it!

[trooper6]

I also say go straight Rogue.

If you want a prestige class, you can pick up Master Thrower...if you are into that sort of thing.

I'd so with the second set of stats. This way you avoid the 7. I wouldn't want a 7 in CHA...charisma ends up being important for the Rogues I play...Bluff, Sense Motive and Gather Info coming into use often.

Skill Wise...it depends on if your GM uses traps and locks often. The last campaign I was in, we almost never had traps or locks--more adventuring in the world than in dungeons. So I was mostly used for damage. That meant rather than lots of Disable Device and Open Lock, I had Bluff, Tumble, Hide and Move Silent. Sense Motive and Gather Info is also awesome if you will be doing any social type things in the game ever (same with Bluff).

I'd say put your second highest skill in Int so you can have a good chance of getting as many skills as possible.

Feats: Weapon Finesse and Improved Initiative are must haves! But what else you do depends on the weapons you'll be using and the sort of fighter you want to be.

For example...weapon Finesse allows you to use your Dex bonus for light weapons...but also Rapier, Whip, and Spiked Chain. If you are a Dagger Throwing Rogue, you'll want a number of the thrown weapon feats, and also Quick Draw--and being a halfling won't be a problem at all...and will actually be positive...what with their thrown weapon bonuses. But maybe you want to be an Elven Spiked Chain Rogue? The reach will allow you to threaten at range and get lots of attacks of opportunities...So you'd want Combat Reflexes. But with the Spiked Chain you'd also be very good at Disarming...so you could want Improved Disarm and run around disarming foes.

You you are getting Combat Expertise for the Improved Disarm anyway, you may want Improved Feint. This will allow you to Feint in combat as a move action to get your sneak attack damage even when flanking isn't possible.

While Trip is nice...it is based off of your strength...and that isn't going to be so good.

[DAT]

Thanks for everyones advice.

1) Pure Rogue it is. I'll look into confusing myself with Prestige Classes or DIPs (What are DIPs?) later.

2) I'll try a Duskblade a different time.

3) For Race, there seems to be two main lines of suggestions: Elf or Halfling. I follow the thoughts on why NOT Dwarfs or regular Gnomes. I'm not clear on why not Whisper Gnomes?

I did my own quick review assigning PROS, NEUTRAL, and CONS to Elves, Haflings, and Whisper Gnomes:

ELVES
PROS:
• +2 Dexterity,
• Base land speed is 30 feet
• Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.
• Bonus Weapon Proficiency Feats: longsword, rapier, longbow, and shortbow .
• +2 Listen checks.
• +2 Search checks.
• +2 Spot checks.
• Free Search check for secret or concealed door .
NEUTRAL
• Medium size
• Low-Light Vision:
CONS
• –2 Constitution.
• Favored Class: Wizard.

HALFLINGS
PROS:
• +2 Dexterity,
• +1 AC bonus
• +1 attack bonus
• +4 Hide Check bonus
• +2 Climb checks.
• +2 Jump checks.
• +2 Move Silently checks.
• +1 bonus on all saving throws.
• +3 morale bonus on saving throws against fear.
• +1 attack rolls with thrown weapons and slings.
• +2 Listen checks.
• Favored Class: Rogue
CONS
• –2 Strength.
• Small creature limit to use smaller weapons than a Medium character.
• Small creature her lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.
• base land speed is 20 feet
• No low light vision

WHISPER GNOME
PROS:
• +2 Dexterity,
• +2 Constitution,
• +1 AC bonus
• +1 attack bonus
• +8 Hide Check bonus
• base land speed is 30 feet, despite their size.
• Darkvision: 60 feet
• +1 bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids (including goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears);
• +4 dodge bonus to AC against monsters of the giant type..
• +4 Move Silently checks.
• +2 Listen checks:
• +2 Spot checks:
• Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—silence (centered on whisper gnome’s body). If Charisma score of at least 10: 1/day— ghost sound, mage hand, message. Caster level 1st; save DC 10 + Cha modifier + spell level.
• Favored Class: Rogue.
• Racial Feats: The Extra Silence and Silencing Strike feats can be taken
- Extra Silence: Use racial silence ability 3/day + Cha bonus
- Silencing Strike: Silence target of your sneak attack
NEUTRAL
• Low-Light Vision:
• Weapon Familiarity: Whisper gnomes may treat gnome hooked hammers
CONS
• –2 Strength.
• -2 Charisma.
• Small creature limit to use smaller weapons than a Medium character.
• Small creature her lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.

So my summary evaluation is:
Elves have combat and search advantages w/o Hide and Move Silently
Halflings have saving throw and ranged combat advantages w/o low light vision
Whisper Gnomes have Hide, Move Silently, and Darkvision advantages w/o much combat advantages

So which is a better Rogue race?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by DAT

1) For the first character concept, I wasn’t sure if a pure Rogue or a Rogue-Combo (e.g., Fighter-Rogue) would make more sense. Any advice/thoughts? Any ideas for a better class? Is multi-class a bad idea in 3.5?

Multi-class is a bad idea for a caster in 3.5. It can often be quite good for a non-caster. For this character, pick a primary class (rogue) and try to find classes where a one or two level dip gives you some really useful bonuses. Picking well, this tends to give you substantial bonuses to saving throws and a bunch of useful powers, though if you take non-fighter class dips, it will cost you in terms of base attack bonus. For some examples of dips:

• One level cleric (domains: magic and one other, probably Luck): you get a bit of backup healing, and you can use all cleric and wizard magic items without bothering with Use Magic Device. You also get a net of +1.67 Fort, -0.33 Refl, +1.67 Will save, -0.75 BAB.
• One level barbarian: you get +10' movement (useful), rage (not so much), weapon proficiency: all martial (in case you want to backstab with a battleaxe), shield proficiency (not that important, you can wear a masterwork shield w/o proficiency anyway), and a net of +1.67 fort, -0.33 Refl, -0.33 Will, +0.25 BAB.
• Two levels monk: you get unarmed strike 1d6 (not very important), flurry of blows (combines well with backstab), monk bonus to AC, two useful feats, +2.33 Fort, +2.0 Ref, +2.33 Will, -0.5 BAB.

Originally Posted by DAT

2) For the second character concept, I thought the Duskblade class (PHB II, pg 19) looked neat, but wasn’t sure how it would compare to a Fighter-Wizard, Fighter-Sorcerer, Hexblade, or any of the other Fighter-MagicUser type class. Any advice/thoughts?

Multiclass on magic users is usually a bad idea, though some of the prestige classes are fairly strong.

Originally Posted by DAT

3) What about race for the character? For the first concept, I was thinking something with low light (Elf or Gnome) or dark vision (Dwarf or Whisper Gnome (RoS, pg 95)). For the second concept, an Elf or Human. Any advice/thoughts?

If you're going to go the dip route, you need a race with favored class (rogue); human and halfling are probably your best bets. For the second concept, I'd go with human unless you're targeting the bladedancer prestige class.

Originally Posted by DAT

4) What are people’s thoughts on the sets of rolls for the abilities? Is the first set with the high of 18 and low of 7 better or worst than the second set with a high of only 17 but the low is 13?

Almost all character concepts have at least one stat which can be safely dumped. Usually that stat is charisma. However, neither set of stats is weak; you won't exactly suck if you take the second set.

In terms of order:
Rogue: Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Str, Cha
Duskblade: Str, Int, Con, Dex, Wis, Cha

[LemmingLord]

Of those choices, I'd go with the explorer/treasure hunter. How about a dwarf - they don't have an elven trap sense, but they are more fun to play and can see in total darkness.

I'd go with option three to be well rounded like a good rogue should be. Consider putting your highest stat in Intelligence for the skill points.

Stick with just the rogue for now. I do not think about long term advancement, but then I usually get pretty bored with high level D&D characters.

There really isn't a dump stat for a rogue. If there is a dump stat, it would be charisma - but if you pick dwarf and the higher stat option, you end up with a 5 in charisma (which seems like blatant min/maxing to me).

I've played several dungeon diving/treasure hunting rogue types. Spot, Listen, Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Knowledge: dungeoneering, Knowledge: Local, Gather Information are important. I tend to skip pickpocketting unless the character background includes him being a street thief.

I like going with skill focuses for my feats.

Take a dwarven weapon - dwarves get two handed pick axe for free if I remember correctly. They do more damage and just make sense with a character that probably spent thirty years of his life mining.