Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?

[vicky_molokh]

Greetings, all!

I noticed that whenever I postulated a situation when two factions had the same total TL, but achieved it through different/divergent paths, somebody would jump in and say that in five years faction A will have all tech from faction B and vice-versa. Now, for some reason nobody says that when two factions with different TLs, but belonging to the same path, meet or even interact for a long time.

What's this big problem with keeping the tech paths distinct? I see lots of examples - Tau, Kroot and Vespid, Terrans and Protoss, the 'races' of EVE Online, Warcraft etc. Yet whenever I mention it for an RPG setting, somebody jump up in protest.

Thanks is advance to all who answer!

[pawsplay]

Actually raising a TL requires resources. However, two divergent TLs are going to borrow rapidly from each other if they are in contact, or especially, competition with each other. They might differ in what specific items of technology they use based on:

- historical reliance
- available materials and natural resources
- wealth
- moral or philosophic qualms
- the pressures of social stability

but clearly, two TLs can not long remain divergent, only specialized. For an example, look at the introduction of Western handguns and armor-making techniques into Japan, or the interchange and rivalry between Japanese and American auto makers in the 1970s.

[makke]

I think the relationship between Europe and the Middle East is a nice example of two societies with different TL's (at least partially) that were in contact for hundreds of years - anyhow Europa didn't adopt the advanced medicine for some time.

[pawsplay]

Originally Posted by makke

I think the relationship between Europe and the Middle East is a nice example of two societies with different TL's (at least partially) that were in contact for hundreds of years - anyhow Europa didn't adopt the advanced medicine for some time.

Because of moral prohibitions and social pressures. The Europe and Middle East are a good example of how TLs naturally converge, actually. Chainmail went east while scimitars traveled west and became sabers. Alternative approaches to music and mathematics combined and formed a robust form, which gave Europe the minor key and Spanish quitar.

[vicky_molokh]

Actually, there are almost no examples of tech divergence on earth. The things you quote are probably no more than one TL of divergence. (In fact, I never heard of Chinese or Arabic medicine to be labelled TLx+y in GURPS.)

[khorboth]

I have seen this done quite well in fiction several times. Most notably:

The Schismatrix
The Reality Dysfunction

In both cases, social pressures labeled some types of technology as "acceptable" and "unacceptable" for various groups.

[David Johnston2]

Well firstly, divergent tech species have something to trade with each other. Suppose that we were to encounter a TL 5+3 species from a parallel universe, one that had for example never discovered gunpowder or the internal combustion engine but were instead using lasers and electric cars. You better believe we'd be eager to exchange knowledge with them. If we encounter the TL 5 guys down the road...not so much. We've already got everything they have, so they'd have to trade raw materials, and probably at not very advantageous terms.

Quite apart from that, it's just plain easier. Someone who knows about simple bows will readily grasp the principle of spear throwers and vice versa. Spear thrower guy won't have nearly so easy a time copying the technological advancements involved in making a compound bow much that involved in a firearm.

That being said how can we have different cultures have divergent technology over the long term?

For a start we can have them be so mutually hostile that that only thing they exchange are attacks. While they can learn a bit from looting the wrecks and corpses a total lack of commercial and intellectual interchange is going to ensure that the Terrans will not catch up with the Enemy in the arts and sciences they excell in. It helps if the two cultures are both Hidebound.

Alternatively, you can get a certain amount of joy out of changing the ground conditions. The internal combustion engine is dependant on our world having loads of petroleum. If we were from a world that didn't have those readily extracted high-energy liquid hydrocarbon, the internal combustion engine simply wouldn't have been worth the bother to develop or copy if we had a nearly as good electric or steam engine. If the 5+3 guys above base their technology on happening to have a room temperature superconductor lying around for the mining and they won't sell it to us, or it only works because they are all Electrokinetics, we're SOL when it comes to copying their gizmos.

[tanniynim]

I would assume that if the tech paths are significantly divergent (Terrans and Protoss), that the difference would be so great, it would be difficult for them to overlap.

For instance, if we develop computers in the method we have been for another 500 years, and then we encounter a civilization that uses Biology (or Magic in a Fantasy game) based computers, wouldn't the differences be so drastic that you would have to start learning the other from scratch?

This could be used as a TL difference, but only in technological cultures drastically different than your own.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by tanniynim

I would assume that if the tech paths are significantly divergent (Terrans and Protoss), that the difference would be so great, it would be difficult for them to overlap.

For instance, if we develop computers in the method we have been for another 500 years, and then we encounter a civilization that uses Biology (or Magic in a Fantasy game) based computers, wouldn't the differences be so drastic that you would have to start learning the other from scratch?

Not as long we know biology. We could not use our TL 11 computer knowledge to make sense out of of their TL 11 biological computers, but we could use our TL 11 biological knowledge to start to make sense out of it. Now it could be that we have slashed technology. We have TL 11 electronics but we're only TL 8 in biology, while they are TL 11 in biology and don't know diddly about electronics.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Not as long we know biology. We could not use our TL 11 computer knowledge to make sense out of of their TL 11 biological computers, but we could use our TL 11 biological knowledge to start to make sense out of it. Now it could be that we have slashed technology. We have TL 11 electronics but we're only TL 8 in biology, while they are TL 11 in biology and don't know diddly about electronics.

Fair example. Remnded me of West of Eden, BTW. Divergent indeed, to the point of inventing writing much later than inventing biotools.