Intimidation - the most useless Influence Skill?

[vicky_molokh]

Greetings, all!

It came to me as a disappointing observation, originally from VtM/ST, then from the VtM/Bloodlines CRPG, and only then from GURPS, that Intimidation is by far the most useless Influence Skill. Compared to others, it has too many drawbacks and almost no benefits:

• Diplomacy doesn't give a bad reaction on a failure, and it gives an automatic +2 at level 20. Well yeah, it's Hard.
• Sex Appeal gives a Very Good reaction on a success; it is HT-based, which makes it available to fighters and other non-IQ-sorts; it is the only skill where the GM can't deny you your Reaction Modifiers (esp. Appearance). As a drawback, it only works on those attracted to your sex. A good deal for an Average Skill.
• Fast-Talk is the most balanced one. No special benefits or drawbacks, but it happens to be used to resist Detect Lies. An Average Skill with average properties.
• Intimidation has nasty results on a failure . . . and not-so-good ones on a Success. It can't be used to gain a truly friendly reaction, and always gives some nasty consequences once the success wears off. It is at -3 to request for aid.

What's the point in investing in this Average skill? Especially given that it costs 4/level in the end, while Will costs 5/level? To me, it seems that Diplomacy or Fast-Talk is always a better way to go, and Sex Appeal is always a better secondary to any of those two (compared to Intimidation).

Thanks in advance to all who answer!

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Greetings, all!

It came to me as a disappointing observation, originally from VtM/ST, then from the VtM/Bloodlines CRPG, and only then from GURPS, that Intimidation is by far the most useless Influence Skill. Compared to others, it has too many drawbacks and almost no benefits:

• Diplomacy doesn't give a bad reaction on a failure, and it gives an automatic +2 at level 20. Well yeah, it's Hard.
• Sex Appeal gives a Very Good reaction on a success; it is HT-based, which makes it available to fighters and other non-IQ-sorts; it is the only skill where the GM can't deny you your Reaction Modifiers (esp. Appearance). As a drawback, it only works on those attracted to your sex. A good deal for an Average Skill.
• Fast-Talk is the most balanced one. No special benefits or drawbacks, but it happens to be used to resist Detect Lies. An Average Skill with average properties.
• Intimidation has nasty results on a failure . . . and not-so-good ones on a Success. It can't be used to gain a truly friendly reaction, and always gives some nasty consequences once the success wears off. It is at -3 to request for aid.

What's the point in investing in this Average skill? Especially given that it costs 4/level in the end, while Will costs 5/level? To me, it seems that Diplomacy or Fast-Talk is always a better way to go, and Sex Appeal is always a better secondary to any of those two (compared to Intimidation).

Thanks in advance to all who answer!

One possibility is that Intimidation can realistically be used in a wide range of situations, including not just pre-combat but also actual combat, in which the other Influence skills can't.

Not sure if that is supported by the rules, though. It's a long while since I read the rules for Influence skills in GURPS.

[Tommi_Kovala]

It's a flavour issue, too. A menacing warrior doesn't "fast-talk" or "negotiate" an enemy into submission.

[transmetahuman]

Originally Posted by Tommi_Kovala

It's a flavour issue, too. A menacing warrior doesn't "fast-talk" or "negotiate" an enemy into submission.

To say nothing of Sex Appeal... :)

[rosignol]

Originally Posted by transmetahuman

To say nothing of Sex Appeal... :)

I've run into captured NPCs who tried to use that skill to convince the guard to let them go...

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by rosignol

I've run into captured NPCs who tried to use that skill to convince the guard to let them go...

Aaand?

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Tommi_Kovala

It's a flavour issue, too. A menacing warrior doesn't "fast-talk" or "negotiate" an enemy into submission.

Also, there are certain things you can do which should grant bonuses to Intimidation skill rolls (smoe of these are, IIRC, covered in the core book): Displays of great physical prowess. Drawing your weapon (bonus depending on how much of a warrior the other guy is). And so forth.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Yeah, it's pretty much that it's useful in a good number of situations where the others are not. Plus the fact that you can often get the opportunity to use Intimidation as a "special effect" freebie from certain other actions (A single style perk for this is often VERY useful). And it's very easy to gain extra bonuses on, due to actions, situation, or just who you are (Sure, you could pay points for appearance to boost Sex Appeal. Or you could get points for Callous to boost Intimidation...).

Most notable to me is that it's rapidly enough available to use in an emergency.

[Phil Masters]

When you've got your foot on the goblin's chest and your sword at his throat, and you want to know how many other goblins there are in the nest...

You are not using Diplomacy.

Influence skills aren't just a bundle of functionally identical "influence" game effects with different names. They're different skills that do different things, some of which happen to be covered by similar rules mechanisms.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Greetings, all!

It came to me as a disappointing observation, originally from VtM/ST, then from the VtM/Bloodlines CRPG, and only then from GURPS, that Intimidation is by far the most useless Influence Skill. Compared to others, it has too many drawbacks and almost no benefits:

• Diplomacy doesn't give a bad reaction on a failure, and it gives an automatic +2 at level 20. Well yeah, it's Hard.
• Sex Appeal gives a Very Good reaction on a success; it is HT-based, which makes it available to fighters and other non-IQ-sorts; it is the only skill where the GM can't deny you your Reaction Modifiers (esp. Appearance). As a drawback, it only works on those attracted to your sex. A good deal for an Average Skill.
• Fast-Talk is the most balanced one. No special benefits or drawbacks, but it happens to be used to resist Detect Lies. An Average Skill with average properties.
• Intimidation has nasty results on a failure . . . and not-so-good ones on a Success. It can't be used to gain a truly friendly reaction, and always gives some nasty consequences once the success wears off. It is at -3 to request for aid.

What's the point in investing in this Average skill? Especially given that it costs 4/level in the end, while Will costs 5/level? To me, it seems that Diplomacy or Fast-Talk is always a better way to go, and Sex Appeal is always a better secondary to any of those two (compared to Intimidation).

Thanks in advance to all who answer!

Intimidation, as others on-thread have noted, comes in many forms and can be used in many situations. That said, the high risk of a failure is realistic. Intimidation can be a dangerous skill to use, or fail at using. The consequences for failure can run from mockery or long-term dislike from the target to you getting maimed or killed when you otherwise would not have, in extreme cases.

Whether intimidation is worth the cost depends to some degree on the character concept, and what sort of situation s/he is likely to be in most of the time.

Realistically, my personal view is that Intimidation is unrealistically generalized. That is, the skill of intimidating a witness in court is actually quite different than the skill of intimidating the guy with the gun to put down the weapon and walk away. There is some overlap, but they are very different kinds of thing, and being good at one won't necessarily help with the other. You might be quite convincing at threatening people's financial livelihood and totally unconvincing at making them believe you'll cripple them physically, or vice versa.