Parry a Slam?

[stilleon]

I was playing GURPS this weekend. The GM had a ST 12 dude slam me. I am a fencer, armed with a saber. So he comes at me and I decide my options. Turns out parry is on the table, but the GM warns me that I might break my saber because the slammer is considered a heavy weapon.

Here is my problem with these rules. The slammer weighs about 150lbs, lets say. All his motion contains a lot of energy because of his mass. A saber is a weapon with a lot less mass. Seems to me that a saber (or any sword) would find it impossible to deflect the mass of the slammer. Why?

1. The sword would not have enough mass, even if swung, to deflect the amss of the body.
2. The body is made of tissue, which is kid of soft. Unless dressed in plate mail or something it would probably push the blade back, not snap it. Also, the wrist of the defender would probably bend because his muscles will give way from the force of the blow.

So, it seems to me that the rules should have the parry automatically fail unless there are exceptional circumstances.

The only exception would be to aggressively parry, hitting the enemy as he comes in (he is exposing himself to attack) without his blade snapping, or to set the blade so the slammer will impale himself (which I think would take a ready maneuver). Maybe there should be a "Fast-Set" technique to react to slams and their ilk.

Thoughts?

[jindra34]

no, one way is through deflection, diverting them onto a path that does not run into you.

[stilleon]

Originally Posted by jindra34

no, one way is through deflection, diverting them onto a path that does not run into you.

But isn't that more of a judo move, using a sword to push?

[Kromm]

You can parry a slam just fine: brace your weapon against the other arm, your shield, etc., and push him away. That counts as a parry (remember: per GURPS Martial Arts, weapon skills all include the ability to shove and slam with weapons, so doing so defensively isn't anything special). The catch is that slams count as weapons with weight = attacker's ST. This is a medium-sized to large problem for ST 12+ attackers (the sort of people who like to slam) vs. the typical run of light melee weapons. Even a ST 10 man has a good chance of snapping your broadsword, and a ST 15 thug has decent odds of snapping your bastard sword.

[stilleon]

Originally Posted by Kromm

You can parry a slam just fine: brace your weapon against the other arm, your shield, etc., and push him away. That counts as a parry (remember: per GURPS Martial Arts, weapon skills all include the ability to shove and slam with weapons, so doing so defensively isn't anything special). The catch is that slams count as weapons with weight = attacker's ST. This is a medium-sized to large problem for ST 12+ attackers (the sort of people who like to slam) vs. the typical run of light melee weapons. Even a ST 10 man has a good chance of snapping your broadsword, and a ST 15 thug has decent odds of snapping your bastard sword.

Okay, that seems to be the way a basic fighter might do it. But being around people that are trained with swords), I would say that they would rather do a dodge and swing the sword to give a blow. Their sword would never break because they wouldn't allow it, the maneuver you speak of would probably be taught AGAINST.

Which brings me to the other thing about defending against slams:

Say the slammer is moving at 6 yards/sec. This is far slower than a swung weapon and you can see it coming. Shouldn't active defenses be easier?

It just seem that slams are more useful in this game than real life (except maybe sumo or World Wrestling Entertainment).

BTW: That would be an awesome PDF: Professional Wrestling for Martial Arts. Rules for bouncing off the ropes, clotheslining, the back breaker, a flying forearm smash... it would be awesome.

[pawsplay]

The Roman army conquered most of Europe by going slam, bash, stab, slam, bash, stab.

[benz72]

Originally Posted by stilleon

Okay, that seems to be the way a basic fighter might do it. But being around people that are trained with swords), I would say that they would rather do a dodge and swing the sword to give a blow. Their sword would never break because they wouldn't allow it, the maneuver you speak of would probably be taught AGAINST.

Which brings me to the other thing about defending against slams:

Say the slammer is moving at 6 yards/sec. This is far slower than a swung weapon and you can see it coming. Shouldn't active defenses be easier?

It just seem that slams are more useful in this game than real life

snip.

Not impossible, but consider whether or not slamming is a valid tactic in whatever simulation you are basing the conclusion on.
A fencer trained in an art that halts for corps-a-corps and resets may act very differently than one trained to clear away any intervening blade and run his opponent down.
Not having done an exhaustive search I cannot say that only the first way is taught anymore but I would be interested to know if the art you are referencing includes punching with a basket hilt, checking/slamming and stomping on the opponent's foot as legitimate maneuvers. If so I would find this to be a rarity (but an interesting one).

[Henquist]

Originally Posted by Kromm

You can parry a slam just fine: brace your weapon against the other arm, your shield, etc., and push him away. That counts as a parry (remember: per GURPS Martial Arts, weapon skills all include the ability to shove and slam with weapons, so doing so defensively isn't anything special). The catch is that slams count as weapons with weight = attacker's ST. This is a medium-sized to large problem for ST 12+ attackers (the sort of people who like to slam) vs. the typical run of light melee weapons. Even a ST 10 man has a good chance of snapping your broadsword, and a ST 15 thug has decent odds of snapping your bastard sword.

So is it possible to attempt this sort of parry against a shield slam from the rear? say in a runaround situation where you do get a penalized parry. It seems the rules technically allow for this but I do not see it possible to make this sort of brace against the slam.

[Dustin]

For 7 years, this thread lay unquiet in its grave, until the dread necromancer known as Henquist intoned:

Originally Posted by Henquist

So is it possible to attempt this sort of parry against a shield slam from the rear? say in a runaround situation where you do get a penalized parry. It seems the rules technically allow for this but I do not see it possible to make this sort of brace against the slam.

I don't see why it would be impossible. If you've been visually tracking the attacker during their runaround, you have some time to react, and (as you noted) you're already being penalized for the effective Flank.

[Ulzgoroth]

As far as the mass issue, Pyramid 3-77 has an interesting (and often previously discussed) alternative to the standard, though it won't make a huge difference at ST 12

Originally Posted by Henquist

So is it possible to attempt this sort of parry against a shield slam from the rear? say in a runaround situation where you do get a penalized parry. It seems the rules technically allow for this but I do not see it possible to make this sort of brace against the slam.

A run-around slam is a pretty awkward maneuver in its own right...