Super ST in GURPS Super

[Aldaris]

Hello to all.

I have recently read in this post

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...9&page=3&pp=10

the probable solution to balance ST cost with Innate attacks. Shortly, with a +300% enhancemet to ST, you can use ST in whatever aspect (except HP) with the Super-Effort rules as per Lifting ST (p. P58). But ... am I the only who think that this solution is a little to powerful? With a +20 ST a character colud have +5000 ST! Using a choke manoeuvre on an adversary with normal Strength, you can inflict 5000 points of damage (*1,5 to the neck). To convert 4900 points of damage to dice is: 4900 / 7 * 2 =1400 dice of crushin damage! Even with Cost Fatigue and Melee Attack "C" it costs 4550 cp as an IA. And Super Effort ST give you many other advantages.
Furthermore, is it balance with skills as brawling, karate, boxing and advantages as claws and long arms? Is not there the danger that all the threads in which we discussed on as to balance ST with IA are replaced by the same that will discuss on as to balance IA with SE ST?

[Ironhand]

You're right Aldaris. It is one hell of a huge enhancement that is way underpriced. Still, if it gets misused or used in the wrong type of campaign to begin with I think its the GM's fault. I wouldn't allow it or only allow a certain number of levels for superstrong characters. I might force them to play a strick brick template with a restricted amount of the super st enhancement. In the whole I think its a good solution for four color high point games where strength and damaging attacks can really consume a lot of points to get only even a moderate effective amount. Lifting strength with super effort was a good start, but a lot of people like me like to have supers with oompf that can dish out damage close to what they can lift. I don't want a version of the Thing that can lift a tank in each hand, but can't scrap his mailbox to retrieve a letter he didn't mean to mail. Really strength and damaging effects run a huge point total in comparison to the effectiveness of a lot of fifty to hundred point powers on what they can do. I think used right the new rules can be a great point saver when used properly by a good group of players under a competent GM. Munchkins be damned. You have very good points Aldaris and any GM should be careful with introducing it without considering its effects and placing any needing limitations to make it feasible.

[David Johansen]

I'm still convinced that the ideal solution is to just take limitations to bring the point cost down and buy the 200+ points of Strength. Most really strong supers have a level or two of growth or size, for example. The hulk certainly gets bigger as he gets stronger.

For instance

-10% Super
-15% Pascifism Cannot Kill Pact (or other I've lost my confidence pact)
-10% Size +1
-10% Costs 2 fatigue
-20% Full Power in emergencies only

Some of it could also have Accessiblity (only in costume)

or a Temporary Disadvantage (Berserk?)

But the thing to do is get it up to a -80%. For supers games I'd probably allow two pacts or Temporary disadvantages to get it there.

This seems much more elegant than the various builds I've seen and gets the Hulk's Strength down to around 600 points. Which seems reasonable. I've also come to the conclusion that 1000 points works much better for marvel level heroes than 500. If you get it down to 2points / level ST is pretty balanced against inate attacks.

The main problem I have with super effort lifting strength is that it's inelegent as all get out. Though for guys like Superman it's pretty much inescapable.

However one must keep in mind that Super Effort Strength is an use of extra effort, so I probably wouldn't allow it to be used to choke someone. I'm pretty sure the rules are written with the assumption that you're already trying to choke them as hard as you can.

In fact I wouldn't allow super effort st to apply to anything other than the things extra effort applies to.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by David Johansen

I'm still convinced that the ideal solution is to just take limitations to bring the point cost down and buy the 200+ points of Strength. Most really strong supers have a level or two of growth or size, for example. The hulk certainly gets bigger as he gets stronger.

I'm pretty much convinced that's not the solution. Having a ST200 isn't really high for lifting and even at that low of a value he has unmanageable amounts of damage and HP.

To truly produce comic like results you have to make a few unrealistic adjustments. Damage seems to be unreasonably low relative to a super's lifting ability. Super strong characters seem to lift tanks but still don't turn people to a fine mist when they hit them.

Linear damage with a low logarithmic lift formula seems fit w/comic. For that Lifting ST (Super Effort), works reasonably well though throwing (especially damage) is a problem.

Likewise, Striking ST doesn't work on a Supers scale. It's really only balanced for relatively low ST where characters have low or no innate attacks. Once you add in the ability to buy 20d innate attacks Striking ST just isn't worth buying.

For now, I suggest tabling this argument until G:Supers actually comes out. Taken out of context this modifier does seem unbalanced, but taken with everything else in Supers it may be reasonable.

EDIT: Just to clarify I haven't seen G:Supers and I'm very concerned that it won't do what I want. I don't want 'realistic' Supers that do turn people into fine mists for a low cost. I want easy ways to create DC/Marvel type universes where you can play Batman and Superman in the same game without a lot of hand waving.

Having said that I prefer to wait and make any complaints I have against the product after I've read and digested the whole thing rather than go off based on a little morsel that the author was kind enough to release.

[Anthony]

The problem for linear damage with logarithmic lifting is that supers really do do ridiculous levels of damage -- to objects. Generally speaking, a super can break anything they can lift.

For what it's worth, ST was a gigantic flame-war during the playtest.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The problem for linear damage with logarithmic lifting is that supers really do do ridiculous levels of damage -- to objects. Generally speaking, a super can break anything they can lift.

For what it's worth, ST was a gigantic flame-war during the playtest.

Sounds like an interesting variant to the 'scrub' rule:

"Any object non-named* object you can lift can also be destroyed with a physical attack action."

*non-named is anything the GM decides is plot worthy. These things are destroyed normally.

[Captain-Captain]

The problem is NOT cost per level. The problem is cost per die.

AMost super strong guys don't use melee weapons. Thor being the exception.

So your super strong punch is THRUST based. And the number of levels of ST needed to raise Thrust up a die is... rather high. And at 10 pts per ST level it gets expensive.

Now Innate Attack gets a die per level, ST gets a die every several levels, varies at ST level.

You can restrict an innate attack by 80 percent. You can apply those restrictions to ST as well. Both have minimum costs of 2 CP per level. However the number of levels needed to raise ST damage is the number of times your Innate attack power has in terms of dice of damage if all modifiers are equal.

unless you can get ST to do 1d of damage per level of ST, Super ST is a losing proposition point wise.

[Aldaris]

Thanks to all for replies.

Of course my thought is very similar to that Ironhand express; however ...
- first, I have re-read the thread that I have mentioned to the beginning, and I think that this new enhancement can be normally used in combat, even for choke etc..
- second, we know that ST is not balanced with IA; many and many threads have discuss this problem and I am not interested to return on that.

I partially agree with Rev's comment but, as I already suspected, SE ST is only balanced in a very high four color game. It is balanced with IT:DR (who I personally don't like too much) but not entirely balanced with normal IA.
In fact, advantages can have a geometric progression (like regeneration, IT:DR, etc.) or an arithmetic progression (like DR, IA, Binding etc). With an arithmetic progression you pay XX cp and add X dice of damage, X DR etc (at all levels). Then, in an high four color game, IA and binding (and not only these) should also have a geometric progression if GM allows IT:DR and SE ST. And, in fact, at the bottom of this page
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...9&page=5&pp=10
nudj has asked if there was an enhancemt similar to SE for IA.
For a "minor level" Super game, ST is still inferior to IA. This problem is not resolved but even accented perhaps by this kind of solution.

Personally, I would have preferred a geometric progression for lifting ST (as per powers) and throwing distance only and an arithmetic progression for all others effects of ST (for example: add +7 ST to all others uses of ST - grappling etc. - and +2d to thrust and swing damage) with a less huge enhancemet (perhaps +250%).

[TJA]

I was always a fan of handling "normals" on a normal scale of attributes (up to 20) and then not to add levels, but multiply this base with a factor.
Either with 1.5 like with the range/size table, or just doubling - for linear growing cost.

For example (with doubling costs):

ST 20 = 100p
ST 40 = 200p
ST 80 = 300p
ST 160 = 400p
ST 320 = 500p
ST 640 = 600p
ST 1280 = 800p
ST 2560 = 900p
ST 5120 = 1000p

Reasoning is, that doubling ST from 10 to 20 costs 100p. Why should doubling this again (to ST 40) cost more than before? This way, cost between 0 and 20 are linear as usual and more easy to get for gods/supers/daemons/monsters that have MUCH of that anyway. And it´s easy to remember :)
This way, 1000p will be enough for most anything you could try to build.

And this works with basic ST below 20 as well:

ST 15 = 50p
ST 30 = 150p
ST 60 = 250p
ST 120 = 350p
ST 240 = 450p
ST 480 = 550p
... a.s.o.

If you want to get levels in-between, take a base enhanced level and add more points from the step below at the right cost. This could mean a table or nice formula that needs to be worked out ...

Just a scaling rule could be used for other attributes, secondary attributes and advantages as well - making it easy and rememberable to to create things, creatures and character quite fast and balanced.

Right now, ST 5120 would cost 51100 points regulary, possibly down to 10220 points for -80% (somehow, but still to much, IMHO).

[PK]

Getting effective ST into the thousands is the only way that a super can actually do things like stop a tank with one punch or do serious damage to another brick with IT(DR/1000). While it's easy to have a knee-jerk reaction to the sheer side of the numbers being thrown around, it's hardly a "big deal" from a supers standpoint, where one player may quite innocently ask, "How much strength do I need to throw a mountain?"

Anyways, ST +20 (Super-Effort, +300%) is 800 points. For the same 800 points you could build an Innate Attack which destroys every building in a city, no roll needed. For the same 800 points, you could have the psychic ability to render every person in that city unconscious with a thought. For the same 800 points, you could easily build a gadgeteer with enough High TL, Wealth, and skills to walk into a Radio Shack and walk out with a TL12 world destroying megaweapon. For the same 800 points . . . well, you get the idea.

Compared to all of that, the ability to punch a hole in a tank and throw a person half a mile doesn't seem very overpowered to me at all.