Tweaking the skills list

[whswhs]

Well, one of the winners on my recently circulated game questionnaire was an In Nomine campaign, Junior Achievement (a party of gremlins, imps, and other low-ranked infernal spirits are sent to Earth to compete in tempting mortals into sin, while demons from Media and The Game monitor their progress). So I'm reviewing the game mechanics, which I've never run before, to see if it covers everything I want. And as part of this I'm looking at the skills list.

My current version has two added skills: Bureaucracy (Precision; Default -2) and Playing Instruments (Perception; Default -4). I'm looking for other skills that might fill gaps. Since the setting is going to be a college campus, possibilities that occur to me are Partying, Sexual Technique (or would you just use more Seduction rolls for that, possibly based on Agility rather than Will?), and Sports.

I'd like to see some comments from people who've used In Nomine before on skills that might be desirable, or undesirable, to add to the list, bearing in mind that I don't want a huge number; this seems to be a game that encourages cinematic breadth rather than realistic hyperspecialization.

Bill Stoddard

[milliken]

I'd tend to lump musical performance (and authoring) skills under Artistry, as specialties. The text is really oriented toward drawing and painting, but is pretty much usable as-is for other artistic skills, and it does already require specialization. I would tend not to take the specialization too far, probably only to the instrument class (wind, brass, strings, keyboard, percussion).

Many people, I believe, give an automatic default at +0 or higher for musical performance, to each Choir and Band for its preferred instrument, but I don't think this has ever been put in canon.

Your Bureaucracy skill I'd probably treat as a combination of Knowledge (Power Structure and Rules) and Emote, Fast-Talk, or Savoir-Faire.

I'd definitely put Sexual Technique as an aspect of Seduction. I'd generally treat Partying as a variant of Savoir-Faire, but in some cases based on Strength (for body mass for drinking) or Will (either for drinking effects or to impress people). You could also simply treat drinking effects and the like as straight stat rolls, and leave the rest to appropriate social skills like Emote, Fast-Talk, Savoir-Faire, and Seduction. You might want to add Dancing (which I think may be in one of the supplements, actually), or treat it as an Artistry specialization.

For a college setting, Sports is probably a good skill to add, with specialties for the individual sports. Most of the academic side of college falls into Knowledge specialties.

The thing to keep in mind is that the In Nomine skills are generally over-simplified, and it's probably easiest to just have the GM modify the skill basis or the modifiers based on the situation at hand, or use a reasonable stat roll if no skill seems appropriate.

This is a common issue with IN, since the lightweight rules tend to leave a lot of need for GM interpretation. I rarely bother looking at the skill rules, about the only time I need to refer to the book rules are resonance and Song uses.


Beware of the combat rules -- they're not nearly detailed enough for the wargamer types, and they're a bit more complex than is comfortable for trying to speed through combats. I mostly don't bother with weapon details (except the damage modifier, Power) or armor/cover issues unless the situation cries out for it. Note that high-Corporeal celestials are rather hard to kill with anything less than military firepower, and combats with them can be slow if people are fighting with knives, fists, or small guns.

In practice, I think most IN games run to relatively few combats, and they tend to be dominated by resonance and Song use, or sometimes Superior summonings.

If you have celestials vs. humans, the celestials will win easily unless the humans have serious firepower or a large numerical advantage (and in the latter cases, you usually see the celestials using their special abilities to leave -- or take over -- the scene).

Celestial vs. celestial takes real working out of the combat, but the need to keep things quiet, and also out of human authorities' view sometimes holds the mayhem down. Unless both sides are really combat-capable, though, one side often simply bugs out and/or calls Superiors in.

---Walter

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by milliken

I'd tend to lump musical performance (and authoring) skills under Artistry, as specialties. The text is really oriented toward drawing and painting, but is pretty much usable as-is for other artistic skills, and it does already require specialization. I would tend not to take the specialization too far, probably only to the instrument class (wind, brass, strings, keyboard, percussion).

I considered that option, but the fact that Singing and Dancing are both separate skills made me doubt that it was legitimate.

I'd definitely put Sexual Technique as an aspect of Seduction. I'd generally treat Partying as a variant of Savoir-Faire, but in some cases based on Strength (for body mass for drinking) or Will (either for drinking effects or to impress people). You could also simply treat drinking effects and the like as straight stat rolls, and leave the rest to appropriate social skills like Emote, Fast-Talk, Savoir-Faire, and Seduction. You might want to add Dancing (which I think may be in one of the supplements, actually), or treat it as an Artistry specialization.

Is it legal, in In Nomine, to change which stat a skill is based on for special effects? I hadn't spotted that yet in working through the rules. If it is, then Seduction/Agility and Savoir-Faire/Strength would both be useful ways to avoid adding an extra skill.

The thing to keep in mind is that the In Nomine skills are generally over-simplified, and it's probably easiest to just have the GM modify the skill basis or the modifiers based on the situation at hand, or use a reasonable stat roll if no skill seems appropriate.

The thing is, stat rolls are pretty likely to fail, since the PCs will have only six Forces. I'm looking for things they might want to do and succeed at, and not covered by any existing skill.

[QUOTEBeware of the combat rules -- they're not nearly detailed enough for the wargamer types, and they're a bit more complex than is comfortable for trying to speed through combats. I mostly don't bother with weapon details (except the damage modifier, Power) or armor/cover issues unless the situation cries out for it. Note that high-Corporeal celestials are rather hard to kill with anything less than military firepower, and combats with them can be slow if people are fighting with knives, fists, or small guns.

In practice, I think most IN games run to relatively few combats, and they tend to be dominated by resonance and Song use, or sometimes Superior summonings.[/QUOTE]

I don't expect this to be a high-combat campaign; I figure there'll be a lot more intrigue—given that the contest is sponsored by a servitor of the Game working with the Word-bound Demon of Reality Television.

Thanks for the suggestions!

[milliken]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I considered that option, but the fact that Singing and Dancing are both separate skills made me doubt that it was legitimate.

I think Singing was brought out specifically because of the special connection to Songs and the general musical theme in the game (which admittedly isn't carried through consistently), and because as a performance art, it has slightly different rules modifiers than a static art like painting. It is, however, very similar to Artistry otherwise. I forget why Dancing was introduced, possibly Elizabeth will remember....

Is it legal, in In Nomine, to change which stat a skill is based on for special effects? I hadn't spotted that yet in working through the rules. If it is, then Seduction/Agility and Savoir-Faire/Strength would both be useful ways to avoid adding an extra skill.

"Legal" is an overstatement -- however, IN is a game where it's often beneficial to play fast and loose with the rules to keep things simple and keep the game focused on the more interesting aspects, which tend to be social interactions and complex plots. I don't think this sort of tweak is suggested anywhere in canon, but I think it's the sort of thing a lot of IN GMs tend to do when necessary.

If you think of it as a case where a stat roll might be needed, and you generously allow the player to add an appropriate skill level to it, it may make more sense. Frankly, I'm not convinced that Agility would play as much of a role in sexual situations as various other stats, but I can certainly see cases where it would be appropriate.

Besides, you should think like The Game: "Anything not explicitly forbidden is legal, especially if we don't get caught."

The thing is, stat rolls are pretty likely to fail, since the PCs will have only six Forces. I'm looking for things they might want to do and succeed at, and not covered by any existing skill.

Hmmm... point, though most angels are likely to make Perception rolls, and demons Will rolls, since they want their resonances to work.

A small positive GM modifier to a target number will also work wonders in many cases, since the average starting stat is 6, which is 42% success, and a 7 is 58%. There are also the risk rule (p. 39), which lets the players make a task easier by 1, but with a corresponding CD reduction. Most characters can also use Essence on rolls that are important, though I find that most players hoard their Essence, since it recovers so slowly.

You could also take the trick that was used with combat skills, and add the appropriate Forces to the target number when you feel it necessary. This is a bit of a slippery slope, though -- the combat skills have caused a bit of trouble since that was introduced.

Note that characters often won't have more than one or two points in a skill anyway, since character points tend to get eaten fast during character creation. I think most of my characters tend to have around 10 points total in skills, spread over 5-6 crucial skills for the concept. Kyrios and Shedim have it easier -- they don't have to blow points for a vessel.

This is a wider problem with the IN mechanics, actually -- it's hard for characters (especially humans) to be competent at things if they have to roll all the time, unless they are very specialized. This argues for liberal interpretations of skills, and reserving rolls for things are are unusual (and especially unusual for humans -- I think this is covered in the CPG or the GMG).

There is less of a problem when contests are involved, since it mostly matters when one character makes the roll and the other doesn't.

---Walter

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by milliken

A small positive GM modifier to a target number will also work wonders in many cases, since the average starting stat is 6, which is 42% success, and a 7 is 58%.

These PCs are going to be imps and gremlins (and maybe the odd lilim with Forces lost in battle), built on 6 Forces. Ergo the average starting stat will be 4, which is 17% success, and 5 is 28%: both a smaller chance and a smaller marginal improvement.

Bill Stoddard

[EDG]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Playing Instruments (Perception; Default -4)

The Musical Instrument skill was introduced (I think) in Liber Canticorum, and was promptly errataed into Artistry (Musical Instrument). It's a Perception-based skill defaulting at -2.

Your Bureaucracy looks pretty good to me.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by EDG

The Musical Instrument skill was introduced (I think) in Liber Canticorum, and was promptly errataed into Artistry (Musical Instrument). It's a Perception-based skill defaulting at -2.

That just sounds excessively weird. What, making music with a hammered dulcimer, or bagpipes, or finger cymbals, or a theremin is a specialization of Artistry, but making music with your voice is an entirely different skill? NOT where I would have split it. I considered saying that all musical instruments were specializations of Singing (reinterpretated as Musical Performance); the main reason I didn't was that I thought the default ought to be worse—you have to learn to coordinate movements of your fingers with the sounds you're producing, and often they involve memorizing complex patterns; it's not as easy to pick up an instrument and play as it is to sing.

I might decide to use a variant rule on this one. I kind of liked the idea that characters were naturally talented at the instruments for their choir or band; maybe I'll say that Musical Performance is Perception-2 in that case, but Perception-4 for other instruments.

What? Yes, I routinely impose a nonstandard rule or two when I start using a system . . .

[Archangel Beth]

Originally Posted by whswhs

That just sounds excessively weird. What, making music with a hammered dulcimer, or bagpipes, or finger cymbals, or a theremin is a specialization of Artistry, but making music with your voice is an entirely different skill? NOT where I would have split it.

The Singing skill was originally conceived -- near as I can tell -- to provide an occasional boost with some Songs. Then that part got edited out in some prior draft that isn't the one that got published, but left some legacy text. The legacy text was then incorporated into the Liber Canticorum, with some actual mechanics where Singing skill can aid certain Songs now and then.

If you want to dispense with that part entirely -- and it's easy enough to do with only the basic Songs -- I would fold Singing into a subset of Artistry; they're both Perception based anyway.

As an alternative, keep Singing, and allow a successful Singing roll to add its check digit to the target number of a Song; this would potentially make it easier for low-Force people to actually succeed at a Song without dumping all their Essence into it.

Or you could just automatically add the level of Singing, or half of the level (round down), to the Song target numbers.

[Archangel Beth]

I abuse the Knowledge (X) quite cheerily. I also do not necessarily base it on Intelligence (though it does help ensure Int isn't a dump-stat), if the player can convince me that the circumstances allow some other stat to be the base one.

Adding Bureaucracy as a Precision skill sounds pretty reasonable, though. (And, as noted, Musical Instrument was promptly errataed into Artistry (Musical Instrument).) I'd have to research up Dancing and it's dinnertime right now. Mrfl.

I would use Seduction, based on Strength (which is also health/hit points) or Agility -- or possibly Precision, depending on the technique -- to handle all things sexual. It helps the Andrealphans, after all. [While it's not said explicitly that skills can use stats according to whim, I consider this implicit in the skills that are based on "the higher of X or Y."]

When adding new skills, it helps to remember that compared to GURPS characters, IN ones get relatively few points. It's much better to treat stuff broadly because otherwise the characters swing from "have holes that the other PCs fill in, so they work together" to "crippled." Since you're working with demonlings, I'd *really* suggest not adding a lot of new skills -- and in fact, you might want to lump some of the skills *together* a bit more. E.g., allow Melee Weapon to mean all Melee Weapons (maybe give a +1/-1 to target number for an optional specialization), or Ranged Weapons ditto.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

Adding Bureaucracy as a Precision skill sounds pretty reasonable, though.

I think I'm keeping that one. They're going to be operating on a college campus; dealing with bureaucracy will be a common issue. And it isn't as if they wouldn't have learned something about it in Hell!

I would use Seduction, based on Strength (which is also health/hit points) or Agility -- or possibly Precision, depending on the technique -- to handle all things sexual. It helps the Andrealphans, after all. [While it's not said explicitly that skills can use stats according to whim, I consider this implicit in the skills that are based on "the higher of X or Y."]

Sounds good enough to me.

Since you're working with demonlings, I'd *really* suggest not adding a lot of new skills -- and in fact, you might want to lump some of the skills *together* a bit more. E.g., allow Melee Weapon to mean all Melee Weapons (maybe give a +1/-1 to target number for an optional specialization), or Ranged Weapons ditto.

Probably not; this is going to be a campaign of intrigue and manipulation more than violence. I'd just as soon not make it easier for them to resort to violence. If they come to the attention of the angels, the smart thing for them to do is bug out. But I agree on not wanting to add very many new skills; that's why I came here.

Thanks for the advice!

Bill Stoddard