Is picking things up from the ground in one turn possible?

[Nikolai]

Summary of the RAW:

If a human with normal reach wants to pick up someting from the ground, he does it as follows according to the rules as written - assuming that the item weighs no more than his BL and is in his hex or an adjacent hex# [see p. B383 („Picking something up from the ground“), 364 („Change Posture“), 368 („Step“) and 353 („Lifting and Moving Things During Combat“)]:

Turn 1: Take a Ready maneuver: Use your Step to go from standing to kneeling and then pick up the item with the Ready maneuver. You are at -2 to defense until your next turn because you are kneeling.

Turn 2: Take any maneuver that allows a Step (f. e., an Attack maneuver). Use the Step to go from kneeling to standing and then execute your maneuver, f. e. to attack someone within reach of your weapon.

I think one could thus say that it takes about 1.5 turns to pick something up from the ground and get back to a standing position. (On the second turn, you already get to do something else useful.)


# I interpret the rules as written as meaning that you can pick up something from the ground if you are kneeling in an adjacent hex (and needn‘t be in the same hex).

My question is:

Can a skilled martial artist do it more quickly? Can he get around the -2 to defense between turns for kneeling?

One of my players claims that his martial artist type character with DX 15 and Acrobatics 13 should be able to pick up things (like dropped swords) from the ground in combat in one turn from a standing position without kneeling.

He was able to demonstrate to me in real life that *he* can pick up things from the ground without bending his knees. (I‘m not sure if he could do it in one second in combat without giving up his defenses, though.)

*I* can‘t touch the ground without bending my knees at all. But I probably have DX 9 or 10 and Acrobatics skill at default only. He, on the other hand, has done a lot of martial arts training in real life.

So what do you guys experienced with stuff like this in real life think? Should I allow his character to do this? Or should I maybe require him to have the Flexibility advantage for 5 points? (Maybe that‘s what he has in real life!)

But even if you need Flexibility to touch the ground without bending your knees, maybe I should allow some Acrobatics move which includes bending the knees but still enables him to have the weapon in his hand and be back to a standing position at the end of his turn 1?

What should he roll against for it? Acrobatics? At a penalty? How big a penalty? And what should be the result if he fails the Acrobatics roll? Did he just waste his turn or did he successfully kneel down?

Can somebody tell me if the upcoming Martial Arts has rules for this?

[vitruvian]

*I* can‘t touch the ground without bending my knees at all. But I probably have DX 9 or 10 and Acrobatics skill at default only. He, on the other hand, has done a lot of martial arts training in real life.

I would bend my knees, but seriously doubt that it would take a full second to do so. I've certainly grabbed things from the ground at a trot or a run without pausing, and seen others do the same, although this probably calls for a DX roll not to fumble the object.

I'd probably allow it, with a DX roll *and* some penalty to combat actions in the same turn. Not sure what would be fair, but no more than -4 to attacks (which could be countered with AoA for a wash) and -2 to defenses.

[Rhino]

I would allow a character to pick up an item from the ground if they were crouching. Thus move to the item and stop. Crouch and pick it up. Continue moving.

[vitruvian]

I'm sure we've all seen people do this literally on the run. How would you handle that?

[DouglasCole]

I guess I would look at this in two scenarios:

1. Is it possible, out of combat, to dextrously nab an object on the ground in one second? Sure. You can focus all your concentration on it, ensure you have the right stance and grip, etc.

I think the "don't bend your knees" thing is also a red herring. Sure, I can nearly do a full pike while standing up (diving and currently martial arts). But it's not a terribly balanced position, and probably less fast than a kneeling or crouching pickup.

But in game terms, I'd allow an Acrobatics or DX roll to make a transition from standing to close-to-ground back to standing in one move, and a separate (probably penalized) DX roll to grab it.

2. Is it possible, IN COMBAT, to dextrously nab an object on the ground in one second? Possibly, but probably not without getting beaned in the head while doing so. Or at least beaned somewhere. I'd probably say that the concentration required to keep your situational awareness on the people who are actively trying to do you in while simultaneously making a very precise whole-body movement followed by a very precise manual dexterity action would be more than most can handle. I'd probably allow the attempt at some ridiculously high penalty, like -10. The moment you have to look down and readjust your hand/body to get the right grip on the object is the moment you're effectively not defending.

I wonder if the right way to handle this would be to allow the parts of the maneuver to take up attack actions instead of full-turn actions. So if you want to crouch and grab an item, and then stand, you can do it in two turns while retaining defenses, or one with an "AoA" equivalent.

[Mark Caliber]

Here's my take having tried to pick stuff up off the ground in and out of combat situations*.

1) If you're NOT in combat a simple dex to keep from fumbling is acceptable (As expressed by Vitruvian.) And, IF (and only IF) you want to run a cinematic campaign the you would CERTIANLY want to allow a Dex roll for PC"s and key NPC enemies.

2) Combat dexterity (at least mine) is hampered by adrenaline, nervousness, etc. In a realistic campaign I would encourage you to NOT change the GIVE** rules.


* Please understand that I have NEVER been involved in real combat where my life was on the line. My experience has been solely limited to real martial combat training, and assorted simulations.

** GIVE: GUPRS IVth Edition. Because its a kewl acronym for a kewl game.

[Mark Caliber]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I guess I would look at this in two scenarios:

1. Is it possible, out of combat, to dextrously nab an object on the ground in one second? Sure. You can focus all your concentration on it, ensure you have the right stance and grip, etc.

I think the "don't bend your knees" thing is also a red herring. Sure, I can nearly do a full pike while standing up (diving and currently martial arts). But it's not a terribly balanced position, and probably less fast than a kneeling or crouching pickup.

But in game terms, I'd allow an Acrobatics or DX roll to make a transition from standing to close-to-ground back to standing in one move, and a separate (probably penalized) DX roll to grab it.

2. Is it possible, IN COMBAT, to dextrously nab an object on the ground in one second? Possibly, but probably not without getting beaned in the head while doing so. Or at least beaned somewhere. I'd probably say that the concentration required to keep your situational awareness on the people who are actively trying to do you in while simultaneously making a very precise whole-body movement followed by a very precise manual dexterity action would be more than most can handle. I'd probably allow the attempt at some ridiculously high penalty, like -10. The moment you have to look down and readjust your hand/body to get the right grip on the object is the moment you're effectively not defending.

I wonder if the right way to handle this would be to allow the parts of the maneuver to take up attack actions instead of full-turn actions. So if you want to crouch and grab an item, and then stand, you can do it in two turns while retaining defenses, or one with an "AoA" equivalent.

Having re-read this post, I'd endorse and accept these options as well, especially in a cinematic campaign.

[yffub]

I like the AoA idea, too.

An aside, a friend I game with always takes the "Fast-Draw (<weapon> from Ground)" skill. Fast-Draw (Sword from Ground), Fast-Draw (Spear from Ground), whatever his prefered weapon may be. Somewhat generous of the GM to allow it, but it is amusing. I think he started taking this skill after one too many "Drop weapon" critical failure results.

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by Nikolai

Very well, thanks for clarifying that, Kromm! :-)

I can't believe this!

...At last, they cracked open the armored chest ;^)

Originally Posted by Nikolai
But who knows, maybe Martial Arts is supposed to alter the rule in Basic Set.

Originally Posted by Kromm

Yes.

Originally Posted by demonsbane

Yesterday, a friend mine pointed to me she wasn't able to agree with this in the Basic Set (...)

And now, she agrees with 4e Martial Arts altering that rule.

...Incidentally, me too.

Thanks for showing yourself here, Sean.

[DannyBlackEyes]

Specific rules beat general rules, as a rule. Remember that.