Duration for Astral Sword psionic power?

[Deathwindfr]

Dear all,

I am not sure about the duration for the Astral Sword psionic power (Psionic Powers p28).

The description lists no duration. It is based on Innate Attack advantage which does not lis a duration.

So basically Astral Sword Power is always "on"?

[Varyon]

I don't have the relevant book to check exactly how that one is built, but in general, I believe melee Innate Attacks simply exist when you use them and don't when you aren't using them - that is, they can essentially be turned on and off as you use it, rather than needing a moment. Compare to ranged Innate Attacks - you simply shoot eye beams or whatever the round you use them, and aside from that they don't exist. "Attacks – notably Affliction (p. 35), Binding (p. 40), and Innate Attack (p. 61) – are only “on” while you are attacking. An advantage like this requires a one-second Attack maneuver to use; you cannot switch it on continuously without a special enhancement" (B34). The Melee Attack Limitation doesn't say anything to contradict this, although the "only "on" while you are attacking" bit doesn't quite follow considering such can, by default, be used to Parry.

While it may not quite be RAW, it may be more appropriate to have melee Innate Attacks and similar be treated as Switchable, requiring a Ready to turn on or off (in this case, summoning and dismissing your Astral Sword). Note this would simply be a part of the Melee Weapon Limitation, and you don't need to pay for Switchable +10%. To make such be able to be summoned and dismissed as a free action, add a +10% Enhancement (this is based on Hidden +20% from "Natural Weapons," Pyramid #3/65; that's basically the Switchable Enhancement but a free action rather than calling for a Ready to turn on and off). I'd personally let you pay +5% for something that takes a Ready to activate but can be deactivated as a Free Action (for something like an Astral Sword, this is probably a case of being able to drop it, and it disappearing when you do).

[Donny Brook]

It's based on Innate Attack, it has No Signature, Selectivity, and a cosmetic enhancement that it can appear as any kind of weapon.

It also says it can "parry astral attacks normally".

On page B62 it says: "Innate Attacks are treated as ranged attacks unless given the Melee Attack limitation; then they’re considered melee weapons."

Innate Attacks don't require a Ready maneouver, active defenses don't require a maneouver at all.

Selectivity says you can switch on and off Enhancements 'at will', which sounds like a free action to me. (However, unfortunately there is a possible contradiction because Selectivity by default assumes all enhancements are 'on', which might put No Signature in conflict with 'appear as any kind of weapon'. To resolve the inconsistency, I suppose we could say 'appear as any kind of weapon' in conjunction with No Signature includes an undetectable one. That would leave the only purpose for Selectivity to be to switch off Symptoms.)

So to put all that together, I would say the Innate Attack is:

-always available without any activation needed other than an Attack maneouver,

-always available to parry with because it's has been modified with Melee Attack,

-and is visible in whatever form the character decides, as a free action.

[Deathwindfr]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

So to put all that together, I would say the Innate Attack is:
-always available without any activation needed other than an Attack maneouver,
-always available to parry with because it's has been modified with Melee Attack,
-and is visible in whatever form the character decides, as a free action.

Good argument, makes sense to me.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Deathwindfr

not sure about the duration for the Astral Sword psionic power (Psionic Powers p28).

The description lists no duration. It is based on Innate Attack advantage which does not list a duration.

So basically Astral Sword Power is always "on"?

I can't see that as the intention since it says from the outset "can manifest" so obviously there is a non-manifested state here.

There is a clear visual aspect to brandishing a weapon for intimidation purposes which I think should have a distinct existence.

Originally Posted by Varyon

I don't have the relevant book to check exactly how that one is built, but in general, I believe melee Innate Attacks simply exist when you use them and don't when you aren't using them - that is, they can essentially be turned on and off as you use it, rather than needing a moment.

Innate Attack (Melee) stuff AFAIK aren't always-on, they're weapons which you can manifest as a free action when you plan to use them. That might cause a few issues when parrying surprise attacks when you haven't manifested your weapon (free actions are done at the start of your turn, not during another's) but otherwise wouldn't matter.

Maybe it could be treated like having Reflexive +40% (you get to roll a power dodge at +4 to turn it on as needed?) but only for the purposes of turning it on for doing emergency-parries?

I do like the idea of there being some benefit to keeping the weapon manifested pre-emptively, such as not needing to make such a roll for emergency parries - otherwise does it make sense to have it as a defensive intimidation tactic if it doesn't aid in the defensive preparation at all to have it out?

Maybe if we're ignoring a Power-Dodge to turn on a Reflexive power then at least something like a "doing two things at once, -2" skill penalty resulting in a -1 parry penalty if a non-manifested Innate Attack (Melee) is being used to parry on that first turn the weapon's not kept visibly out? Seems fair to me and of little impact - it'd explain why people would keep the power on, to avoid that -1 to "quick-drawing parries" ... so to speak.

Another reason I guess would be if you're using rules involving Armed Grappling with such weapons, particularly with the new "Weapon Bind" options Cole introduced in Fantastic Dungeon Grappling.

I'd imagine that's moreso with ST-based physical weapons though, I don't know if grappling w/ Burning Attack (Melee) would make sense, for example - for stuff like lightsabers I have to assume that's only possibly via a physical component (the magnetic aura) or via special energy-on-energy options.

Originally Posted by Deathwindfr

Compare to ranged Innate Attacks - you simply shoot eye beams or whatever the round you use them, and aside from that they don't exist. "Attacks – notably Affliction (p. 35), Binding (p. 40), and Innate Attack (p. 61) – are only “on” while you are attacking. An advantage like this requires a one-second Attack maneuver to use; you cannot switch it on continuously without a special enhancement" (B34). The Melee Attack Limitation doesn't say anything to contradict this, although the "only "on" while you are attacking" bit doesn't quite follow considering such can, by default, be used to Parry.

That's one thing which could benefit from having more options - how often is it we see in comics of heroes just standing around with their hands glowing in preparation for throwing energy blasts - it screams like a sort of switchable innate attack capacity that gives ongoing visual cues even when not attempting damage.

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

there is a possible contradiction because Selectivity by default assumes all enhancements are 'on', which might put No Signature in conflict with 'appear as any kind of weapon'. To resolve the inconsistency, I suppose we could say 'appear as any kind of weapon' in conjunction with No Signature includes an undetectable one.

That enhancement has been a strange one considering the name - like shouldn't it be called "Astral Weapon" ?

The 'any sort' is also odd - it doesn't even have to be a bladed weapon that can do a cutting attack? It can look like a gun? Feels like it should have been "any sort of bladed weapon" in the enhancement phrasing and maybe "Astral Blade" instead of "Astral Sword" as the technique name.

There's no contradiction because No Signature +20% has two types and I believe this is meant to be this version:

"utterly undetectable by normal means, but leaves a magical or psionic trace."

There's 3 conditions specified in the opening after all:
on the astral plane
to astral beings
to those using Astral Sight

The +5% is an aesthetic to influence those perceiving it that way.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by Plane

Innate Attack (Melee) stuff AFAIK aren't always-on, they're weapons which you can manifest as a free action when you plan to use them.

'Manifesting' is not a concept that appears in rules. An Innate Attack is used by an Attack Manouever. An Innate Attack that is made a Melee Attack can parry. Parrying requires no maneouver.

The bells and whistles on this power don't change those fundamentals.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

'Manifesting' is not a concept that appears in rules.

Perhaps some other term is appropriate. GURPS Powers does use "manifest" at least conceptually to talk about how powers manifest as advantages representing them.

I basically mean "a visual indicator of a weapon existing" which is described in other words. Pg 106 of powers even uses the term here: "Uncontrollable Trigger: Your ability manifests uncontrollably in the presence of an item"

Powers 112 also uses it for the Visible limitation as applied to normally invisible abilities:
"Your ability has a manifestation that makes it plainly obvious to everyone
nearby."

It seems an entirely appropriate term to use for normally-visible abilities, such as Innate Attacks.

Powers 55 also uses it under the "Touch" example of Innate Attack:
"Use this option for an angel who can summon a sword of flame (burning), a robot with a builtin force sword (cutting), or a kung fu master who attacks with a deadly touch (toxic)."

Obviously there are different kinds of Innate Attack (melee) though:

1) the kung fu master can make deadly touches but it's probably not visibly different from an unarmed attack (guessing no signature would tend to be applied building such abilities)

2) built-in force swords are clearly always visible weapons, unless it's a retractible force sword

3) the angel who summons a burning flame sword clearly isn't obligated to be carrying a flaming sword at all times - this would be an important thing in terms of whether the sword produces light, if it shows they are armed, if it registers as a power, if it is possible to try to disarm it or target it with a Beat using some special flame-affecting abilities, etc.

This is also an important consideration for "Jet" attacks which powers 103 says could represent "force blades, flame jets, plasma swords,"

There's a key conceptual difference between a plasma sword visible constantly through combat, and a flame jet which juts out every attack but isn't visibly present in between those attacks.

Whether the rules have actually been published in some obscure place to differentiate (mechanical precedent) the distinction is clearly intended so I'm throwing out some ideas for how you could represent that intention using existing mechanics.

I think the easiest way could just be to ignore Melee Attack as a limitation and just use Melee-Capable pricing (PU4p19) combined with a new "Cannot Ranged -40%" limitation.

The benefit there is now with Melee-ness as an enhancement it could be turned off via Selectivity and un-manifested.

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

An Innate Attack is used by an Attack Manouever.

B112 mentions "functions as a melee weapon" so it may boil down to how one interprets the verb "function".

They have reach for example - reach of a weapon is generally visible, meaning a melee attack has to be manifested in a visible way to be targeted in that way.

Does this mean melee attack IAs are by default always-manifested capacity (a sword for melee, a barrel for a gun, etc) unless otherwise indicated by something like no signature?

The effect of using the ability (the damage, the targeting roll) has the power active but it seems to indicate there's some passive indicator of having an ability to attack (or parry) in many cases.

Even with ranged ones I think that's the intent of "Guns as Innate Attacks" (Powers 54) and Built-In Firearms (Powers 136)

Even though always-on is only seen as a limitation for aura-based melee attacks, if a melee attack actually occupies a hand (a sword which appears in the hand, as opposed to... extending from the elbow?) then not being able to deactivate it would be a problem for manipulating objects.

This is also something chosen when designing innate attacks, as specified under the skill at page 201 where you 'must' specialize.

It does say beams/projectiles don't require the hand be empty (only unrestrained) so requiring an empty hand might be something along the lines of temporary disadvantage (one hand) albeit that's designed for switchable stuff so having it worked for transient ablities might require Alternate From designed to impart those attack abilities?

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

An Innate Attack that is made a Melee Attack can parry.

Barring either the Aura enhancement or the Cannot Parry limitation I agree.

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

Parrying requires no maneouver.
The bells and whistles on this power don't change those fundamentals.

if you can parry without a maneuver this only goes to show that innate attack has aspects of existence beyond the choice to use it with an attack maneuver - ongoing "parryability" so to speak could be seen as evidence it must be present at a specific reach.

This is important for cases where it takes time to switch the Reach of your weapon where that matters for things like close-range parries.

It's not an asterisk-reach (it doesn't require a ready to change) so it's more like a rapier (B273) than a flail (B274) but changing reach of a weapon is still a thing that happens, so it would probably have to fall under the 'free action' perview, which is normally limited to being done on your own turn.

IE if you have a 1,2 rapier, I think you could probably specify whether it's being held at reach 1 or reach 2 on your turn which would influence:

1) distance required to target the weapon with a beat

2) range at which you can sacrificial parry for an ally

3) which adjacent hex(es) your weapon is occupying if foes are evading it to get to you (or an ally)

4) penalties you face (-4 or -8) when using it to parry at close range.

I'd imagine similar guidelines would exist for wielding innate melee attacks too : whether the different range represents a long weapon being held with different grips, or a weapon which changes length, could just be a special effect, but end-of-turn fixed-reach seems like it would greatly matter for the above four reasons.