Forest Chase Scene

[ericthered]

I'm running a chase scene in a forest at night in low tech, using the action chase rules. I have a couple of tweaks/unsettled issues I could use advice on:

• Survival (Forest) is good as a complementary roll in the forest right? Urban survival works in the city, so for a forest chase we should be good.
• The hide penalties feel like they're made city chases, not chases in dense woods. What can I do about this? or do the penalties make sense to you in a forest
• Its also night. I've ruled that lighting penalties apply to the people trying to find but not to the hiders. Does that sound fair? should the hider's only get half penalties?
• I feel like night vision should help the chase in general but I'm unsure how to account for it. A simple bonus if you have it to all chase rolls is pretty darn strong.
• Is the hiking skill at all relevant?
• The chase involves horses in the forest. I've ruled they use their move, not their top speed for the move bonus because of the thick foliage and twists and turns. Does that feel right?
• Before the forest they crossed a wheat field, and there +2 for double the speed of the quarry felt wrong. Any suggestions? is there a on the ground explanation? should I give the chasers a bonus for favorable terrain?

Thanks for looking this over with me! and yes, this is a PbP game so some of this stuff is still unresolved.

[Varyon]

I'm not familiar with the Chase rules (although I should probably grab the Action! series, it sounds like it has a lot of useful rules), but...

Originally Posted by ericthered

Survival (Forest) is good as a complementary roll in the forest right? Urban survival works in the city, so for a forest chase we should be good.

Yeah, Survival (Forest) should be useful to both sides of the equation, helping with avoiding hazards (or leading/chasing the other side into hazards), keeping your bearings, etc.

Originally Posted by ericthered

Its also night. I've ruled that lighting penalties apply to the people trying to find but not to the hiders. Does that sound fair? should the hider's only get half penalties?

Trying to hide in an unfamiliar environment is probably more difficult in the dark, as you can't see where paths lead very well, plus it's harder to avoid making noise when you can't see what's on the ground you're walking on. On the other hand, it being harder for your pursuers to see you is certainly a help. Half penalties for the hiders, full penalties for the pursuers, sounds about right.

Originally Posted by ericthered

I feel like night vision should help the chase in general but I'm unsure how to account for it. A simple bonus if you have it to all chase rolls is pretty darn strong.

Simply apply it to the full lighting penalties. So if you're at -4 lighting, someone with Night Vision 2 is only at -2, which gets halved to -1 if they're the ones hiding.

Originally Posted by ericthered

Is the hiking skill at all relevant?

I could maybe see a penalized Hiking roll standing in for Survival (Forest) in this regard, but that seems like it's stretching things.

Originally Posted by ericthered

The chase involves horses in the forest. I've ruled they use their move, not their top speed for the move bonus because of the thick foliage and twists and turns. Does that feel right?

Yeah, I don't see a horse being able to go full speed in the woods unless traveling on a well-maintained path. Honestly, if the woods are particularly dense, I suspect the riders would be faster getting off the horses and leaving them behind (using half the Move of the horses may not be inappropriate) - although that decision may come back to bite them if they need to leave the forest, where the speed of the horses can come back into play.

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Yeah, I don't see a horse being able to go full speed in the woods unless traveling on a well-maintained path. Honestly, if the woods are particularly dense, I suspect the riders would be faster getting off the horses and leaving them behind (using half the Move of the horses may not be inappropriate) - although that decision may come back to bite them if they need to leave the forest, where the speed of the horses can come back into play.

Riding a horse at all at night is a recipe for a broken horse - they can't see much better than you can and are liable to mis-step and break ankles and legs (which, come to think of it, is not unknown for humans running in the dark). Riding one into a forest is also a bad idea - combining the two is likely to end up with rider, horse or both injured in short order.
Either get off and lead the horse or, as stated, send them off on their own in hopes they'll lay a false trail.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Simply apply it to the full lighting penalties. So if you're at -4 lighting, someone with Night Vision 2 is only at -2, which gets halved to -1 if they're the ones hiding.

Yup. Night Vision is really helpful in any night action before NVGs are in use.

Originally Posted by Varyon

I could maybe see a penalized Hiking roll standing in for Survival (Forest) in this regard, but that seems like it's stretching things.

I'd ask for a Hiking roll (with the Fit bonus if available) if the chase covers a lot of distance on foot, simply to avoid getting tired and slowing down. If one side slows down and the other doesn't, that could well decide the chase.

Originally Posted by ericthered

Before the forest they crossed a wheat field, and there +2 for double the speed of the quarry felt wrong. Any suggestions? is there a on the ground explanation? should I give the chasers a bonus for favorable terrain?

How tall is the wheat? Remember that most modern wheat you see has been bred to have short stalks.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

Riding a horse at all at night is a recipe for a broken horse - they can't see much better than you can and are liable to mis-step and break ankles and legs (which, come to think of it, is not unknown for humans running in the dark). Riding one into a forest is also a bad idea - combining the two is likely to end up with rider, horse or both injured in short order.
Either get off and lead the horse or, as stated, send them off on their own in hopes they'll lay a false trail.

I think we're handing waving it cinematically....

Originally Posted by johndallman

How tall is the wheat? Remember that most modern wheat you see has been bred to have short stalks.

I think its about July, maybe early august? How tall is the wheat then? Its in southern Cardiel if that matters or helps.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by ericthered

I think its about July, maybe early august? How tall is the wheat then? Its in southern Cardiel if that matters or helps.

I believe that's typically around harvest time, so they should be at least close to full-size. The question is what full-size means. These days, I think wheat typically hovers around a meter tall, but it wasn't that long ago (apparently the shorter plants with higher yields started being aggressively selected for sometime in the 1800's) that it tended to get nearly as tall as a man (or at least as a man of that time period; average heights have increased since then).

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by ericthered

I'm running a chase scene in a forest at night in low tech, using the action chase rules. I have a couple of tweaks/unsettled issues I could use advice on:

• Survival (Forest) is good as a complementary roll in the forest right? Urban survival works in the city, so for a forest chase we should be good.

• It's probably less helpful than you think, but it should help both sides note likely hiding places (after accounting for effective darkness penalties)
  
  

  The hide penalties feel like they're made city chases, not chases in dense woods. What can I do about this? or do the penalties make sense to you in a forest

  Woods and forests will vary in tree density within them (or may). Typically, a change in tree density indicates that the predominant species has changed, which will affect hiding opportunities. On the whole, I wouldn't worry too much, but might make alterations depending on what seems reasonable. Very dense woods can be impassable for people, whether mounted or on foot.
  
  

  Its also night. I've ruled that lighting penalties apply to the people trying to find but not to the hiders. Does that sound fair? should the hider's only get half penalties?

  No, it doesn't sound fair. lighting penalties affect hiders and seekers alike. It makes it harder for the pursuer to notice the quarry, but it also makes it harder for the quarry to see a potential "hide" in the first place. You haven't mentioned it but quarry should have to make a stealth role, probably at a penalty to avoid giving themselves away to the pursuer. Darkness may make it mote difficult to see the quarry but in the dark, making a sound is a deadly giveaway Remaining still and bringing laboured breathing under control should call for a Stealth roll to keep quiet when it matters.
  
  

  I feel like night vision should help the chase in general but I'm unsure how to account for it. A simple bonus if you have it to all chase rolls is pretty darn strong.

  Absolutely, it should help. Set a penalty for overall darkness and remember that night vision DOES NOT help in total darkness (penalty -10 or more) then subtract the Night Vision bonus from the penalty, which can't do more than negate the penalty, no matter how high the bonus. Treat a character who completely negates the penalty as chasing in broad daylight, with the exception that the character cannot distinguish colours. Thus, if he sees a horsehair caught in a bush he knows that a horse went through here but not that it was from an Imperial white stallion.
  
  

  Is the hiking skill at all relevant?

  Maybe for fatigue if the chase goes on long enough.
  
  

  The chase involves horses in the forest. I've ruled they use their move, not their top speed for the move bonus because of the thick foliage and twists and turns. Does that feel right?

  Remembering old Walt Disney Zorro episodes, no, at least not at night. That might work if the darkness isn't any worse than twilight, though twilight might be quite a short period of time. As someone else mentioned, people using full Move can trip and break ankles, too. As a rough guide, I would suggest half Move to avoid footing hazards on regular ground with appropriate penalties for bad footing terrain from Combat. Call Move an additional -2 penalty and anything between half Move and Move as an additional -1.
  
  

  Before the forest they crossed a wheat field, and there +2 for double the speed of the quarry felt wrong. Any suggestions? is there a on the ground explanation? should I give the chasers a bonus for favorable terrain?

One possible explanation depends on just when the wheat field was crossed. It's more common in the early morning before the dew dries off, but if you have an evening mist, you get the same effect. If the quarry crossed the wheat field first, they break the mistiness of the field where the stalks parted in their path. This leaves a very clear, very visible trail of exactly where they went through the field. The pursier can proceed at once to where they exited the field.

Thanks for looking this over with me! and yes, this is a PbP game so some of this stuff is still unresolved.

[Anthony]

I would note that getting lost is a real concern for both sides. It's somewhat more of a concern for the pursued (at least, until the pursuers have to find their way back home) since the pursuers are following a trail and thus presumably if there's an impassible obstacle the target will run into it first.

[RGTraynor]

I am not familiar with the chase rules. But I lived in forests in my teen years, and spent 15-20 weekends a year in my thirties in them. I'm very familiar with forests at night, and back then I had superb night vision. So:

Generally speaking, forests at night -- even not terribly dense ones -- are extremely dark and unforgiving. For the most part you can't see jack. Even at a Move of 1, you are going to stumble and trip over depressions, exposed roots, thorns, low stumps, and the like. (Move 1 is about twice what I would dare off trail, if I wanted to keep my ankles intact.) Running outright, you WILL fall and you MAY get hurt; it's only a matter of time, even if we're talking Robin-in-Sherwood. Even strong moonlight helps only a little, even through single canopy. You'll see well in clearings and on broad paths, but not otherwise.

A chase on a HORSE, short of on a broad manicured highroad through the forest ... look, if you're bound and determined to kill yourself, just cut your throat and let the poor horse be. People succeed at it on screen solely because the scriptwriters pen it that way.

Night Vision helps a little -- not a whole lot. Hiking helps not at all, unless we're talking a nighttime route march, and I wouldn't consider a chase a "hiking" situation.

Hiding? That's very much easier. People appropriately dressed can, without being trained in concealment, hide just a few feet away from someone assiduously looking; trust me on this one. One caveat: a lot of people have this idea that black makes for good nighttime camouflage. Alright, it's better than lime-yellow. But black is darker than the ambient darkness under tree line at night. Navy blue, dark green, charcoal grey, much fitter for purpose.

And Anthony's right. Getting lost in a forest is easy enough in broad daylight. I've tried never to get deeper than 150-200 yards into a forest at night. A half mile in during a chase? Forget it. Without technological directional aids, you're sunk until daylight.

[Curmudgeon]

A quick addendum on Night Vision. Night Vision of the type being described here is extremely sensitive to light. While none of the characters is likely to have modern "lucifers", striking flint and tinder, especially without warning, is likely to draw the eye. This brief exposure to light is enough to cancel all bonuses from Night Vision foe at least 10 minutes. In essence, "the purple is gone" and it will be a long tome regenerating.

Speaking of purple, that is a goof night camouflage colour.