Important organizations with Courtesy Rank for standard ranks

[Prince Charon]

Based on a point brought up in another thread:

Originally Posted by malloyd

I think you could make a case for most starfleet ranks being courtesy ranks anyway, the chain of command seems very flexible even among the parts of the service that lean more to the military side. The Captain and First Officer usually seem firm enough to be actual ranks. Anything beyond that, not so much.

I'm not sure how true this is, but it's an interesting thought. Can you have an organization which is important in a society, one that has some degree of Legal Enforcement Powers or otherwise rights or authority that most people and groups in the same society don't have, where most or perhaps all formal ranks are covered by Courtesy Rank? If so, what effect does this have on a society, and on the organization?

The other organization I can see this working for is some eras of the Jedi in Star Wars Legends - not in the Clone Wars, but earlier, and to some degree later on, it could fit. (I have too little knowledge of Disney canon to comment on the Jedi hierarchy there, and no interest in finding out more.) I can also see this working for merchant vessel crews and similar groups, but that usually doesn't fit the 'powerful' aspect, and in societies where it does, the ranks tend to be more formal.


Thoughts?

[rkbrown419]

Just about every smaller ships Captain isn't an actual Captain. Some ships are small enough to be commanded by a Lieutenant Commander but he's still addressed as Captain and accorded the respect due that rank on his ship. In game terms it would be a level of Courtesy Rank. This would hold true for Civilian vessels where Administrative ranks apply. Even an owner, operator of a one man interstellar ship can claim the right to be called captain even though he doesn't have authority over anyone.
Additionally, I can think of a couple TOS episodes where Enterprise was host to an ambassador or other political official who was allowed to override the Captains judgement in regards to their mission despite having no rank in Starfleet of any kind. This could be represented by them holding a Courtesy Rank or a Federation Administrative Rank since they did have some real authority within the government if not directly in Starfleet.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by rkbrown419

Just about every smaller ships Captain isn't an actual Captain. Some ships are small enough to be commanded by a Lieutenant Commander but he's still addressed as Captain and accorded the respect due that rank on his ship. In game terms it would be a level of Courtesy Rank.

I don't think that's true, assuming it's like the modern day navy. They are always pretty clear on the difference between the rank of captain and the title of captain.

Courtesy Rank might be suitable for people who hold specialized jobs. Training times and experience necessary to be trusted with critical jobs naturally result in nominal seniority, but their actual command might consist of little more than an orderly doing paperwork.

[ratsta]

I wouldn't be asking the LCdr to pay for a courtesy rank because it's all so context dependent.

The captain may only be a LtCdr but is "next after God" so far as the crew are concerned. Once they step onto the dock though, they're swimming with the sharks again.

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by rkbrown419

<SNIP>

OK, but most of that has nothing to do with what I wrote, though? This isn't about a few specific people in an organization having Courtesy Rank, it's about most or all of the ranks in an organization being Courtesy Rank, when the organization has some real authority.

Originally Posted by rkbrown419

This would hold true for Civilian vessels where Administrative ranks apply.

This is the only part that's sort of connected to what I was referring to, but it's a part specifically mentioned in the OP as rarely applying to the concept this thread was started for.

[The Colonel]

So - to use US agencies, the example might be if NCIS agents were assigned an equivalent military rank when dealing directly with the Navy?

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

it's about most or all of the ranks in an organization being Courtesy Rank, when the organization has some real authority.

The question seems self-contradictory to me. Courtesy Rank is defined by not having real authority. It's not about the degree of informality of an organization, nor the ability of individuals to shift the area and amount of their real authority from task to task without a change in title.

Originally Posted by B29, Courtesy Rank

Those who currently hold a title that carries little real authority may also take Courtesy Rank. Courtesy Rank is for social situations only; it gives you a fancier title.

If it's Courtesy Rank, it has no real authority by definition. If the organization in which you hold only Courtesy Rank does have some real authority, this character doesn't have access to it, responsibility for it, and can't wield any of it, for better or worse. The authority is wielded by those in the org that do have the real authority, represented by holding actual Rank in the org.

Those ranks might even have identical titles to the courtesy ranks, which would turn into a system fairly opaque and confusing to outsiders, but inside the org, people would know who the real movers-and-shakers were; if you know, you know. But in game terms, there's still some characters with Rank mixed in with others with Courtesy Rank.

If the organization doesn't have any real authority, then it might consist solely of Courtesy Ranks. This would be some sort of social club -- again by definition, as Courtesy Rank does function in "social situations only". I'm tempted to suggest fraternal societies, but I don't know enough about how any of them actually work to be sure that's a good example. So perhaps we can stick with the cartoon ones, as seen on The Flintstones and The Simpsons. There might be Aspirants and Poobahs and Grand Poobahs that measure popularity or seniority or random draws from cutting cards, but have nothing to do even with the minor administration of the organization -- who pays the rent on the meeting space, who collects the dues, who maintains the calendar of events, who gets people to sign up for one of those events and allocates the necessary work amongst the sea of poobahs? To the extent that the organization executes a function, it has real Rank, even if those Ranks don't get cool titles and social regard (either outside or inside the org).

If the org functions are minor enough that they're handled solely by volunteers each time, then the org itself, as a distinct entity, doesn't have any real authority to delegate to a member. "Ranks" there would be temporary and self-assumed, but any authority relies on the personal influence of the member assuming a role. So, a matter of that character's Influence skills, not authority conveyed by a Rank in the org in game terms. The instant no one feels like volunteering, that event fails. Much of that, and there's not really an "organization" worthy of modelling in game terms. You can volunteer to go pick up trash alongside the roads any time you like, and talk people into joining you, but that doesn't translate into even temporary Rank in the Department of Transportation.

[Varyon]

I could readily see an Adventurer's Guild working this way. I've seen settings where licensed adventurers do have real authority / legal immunity (being able to carry weapons, some degree of law enforcement powers including a limited license to kill, etc), and there are often formal ranks for them, but the ranks themselves generally don't give them any real authority over those beneath them. They seem to instead just serve as prerequisites to take quests of certain difficulty levels. A similar example would be the Hero Association in One Punch Man - the heroes have law enforcement powers and formal ranks (a letter - C, B, A generally, with special exceptional individuals being ranked S - and a number - Mumen Rider is the top-ranked C-class hero, at C-1, for example), but one's rank generally just determines what their wages and responsibilities are, what sorts of situations they are expected to handle (C-class do things like rescuing kittens from trees or stopping mundane petty criminals, B-class handle more serious criminals and minor monsters, A-class handle particularly nasty monsters, and S-class handle more existential threats), etc.

In both cases, higher-ranked individuals are more likely to be listened to and followed, but I feel that's appropriate for Courtesy Rank anyway. Both are meritocracies, so someone reaching Silver rank as an adventurer or high-B or higher rank as a hero indicates someone worth listening to. But this isn't enforced - many other adventurers, even those of lower rank, tend to look down on Goblin Slayer and think he isn't worthy of his Sliver rank (as he got there by doing almost nothing other than killing goblins, which are generally considered amongst the lowest-level monsters); meanwhile, at least as of the last of it I read, many heroes think Saitama / Caped Baldy cheated to get his rank and thus look down on him... but at the same time there are also heroes who are ranked well above him who are perfectly willing to follow his lead, as they've seen how capable he is.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

Based on a point brought up in another thread:

Thoughts?

I disagree with Bill here. The setting is more relaxed than the military, for example we hardly ever see an "Officer on Deck" call and no one ever seems to salute. But numerous times we have seen people question or react slowly to an order and called on it. Bridge crew, e4specially the XO are supposed to be there to help the captain question or consider his orders when appropriate. We see numerous incidents of people who do get told that is a direct order. Authority seems very real here, just less formal in how they interact with each other.
I have been military and it does not work that way. I have not been police though and from my sources it does feel much more relaxed than active duty (or even military reserve).

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

I'm not sure how true this is, but it's an interesting thought. Can you have an organization which is important in a society, one that has some degree of Legal Enforcement Powers or otherwise rights or authority that most people and groups in the same society don't have, where most or perhaps all formal ranks are covered by Courtesy Rank? If so, what effect does this have on a society, and on the organization?

I think it can.
Formal respect and methods to show it help reinforce the idea of authority. The constant reminders help keep it in mind and people are less likely to get too comfortable with those of higher rank, even if they regularly interact. However, especially among enlisted ranks and even senior NCO's among officers tend to relax things a bit among those they regularly work closely with. Especially if no one else is watching.
As to the other half of your question...
If a police officer pulls me over or questions me I respond not to his rank but to his legal enforcement powers. So yeah I think Courtesy Rank is doable here. A sign of respect but no authority over others in the organization.

Originally Posted by Varyon

In both cases, higher-ranked individuals are more likely to be listened to and followed, but I feel that's appropriate for Courtesy Rank anyway.

I agree here, good example.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

Based on a point brought up in another thread:

I'm not sure how true this is, but it's an interesting thought. Can you have an organization which is important in a society, one that has some degree of Legal Enforcement Powers or otherwise rights or authority that most people and groups in the same society don't have, where most or perhaps all formal ranks are covered by Courtesy Rank? If so, what effect does this have on a society, and on the organization?

<snip>

Thoughts?

An organization with only courtesy rank can't really function as an organization. You could have something like the Sikhs, who are occasionally appealed to for justice by non-Sikhs, in India and Pakistan (according to one Sikh I met) but that's at an individual level. Anything larger depends on the sense of duty (which may be Sense of Duty or an actual Duty in GURPS terms) and fear of the approbation of fellow members for any larger or continuing action.

One thing that does get overlooked by persons that don't have military backgrounds is that what people are calling real rank isn't all-authoritative. It applies only in the chain of command. Giving an order to someone outside your chain of command may result in the order being ignored, or followed and resulting in being called on the carpet by your superior, who got an earful from his opposite number in the chain of command about one of his people overstepping his authority.

That said, let's take a look at the "real" ranks of Starfleet. At the top, we have the various Admirals and Commodores that the Captains answer to. Below them, we have the "Skippers", these are the persons who have full authority over a ship, whether they are Captains, Commanders, or Lt. Commanders. Below them are the Department Heads. These have responsibility for a certain function of the ship, be it medical, engineering or communications and may have the right to sit in the Skipper's seat during his absence and are Commanders and Lt. Commanders acting in a staff role. This would also cover Captains acting as staff to an Admiral. Below them are the Officers, mostly Lieutenants and Ensigns, who can command small independent parties of the crew, such as an away team. Below them are the "Chiefs" who are responsible for a small team, and finally, there are the "Crewmen" who do the actual grunt work.

That makes five non-courtesy Ranks:
Rank 5: Admiral
Rank 4: Skipper
Rank 3: Department Head
Rank 2: Officer
Rank 1: Chief
Rank 0: Crewman

I think the proposal for courtesy ranks is probably overblown. As for how a society's organizations would work if the only ranks were courtesy ranks, the answer would have to be nothing like a society where ranks are substantive. Either an organization has to be able to get things done and will use something other than rank to ensure that what needs to happen does or the organization and society at large will have to accept that some things won't get done or will fall through the cracks and that is just "the way things are."