Fencing is just Sword Expertise

[hcobb]

In this variant the knife/sword group gets just two expertises: Dagger and Fencing. The Main Gauche still needs both if you want both the defensive advantage and the HTH advantage.

Fencer is more powerful but less flexible than the other two major expertise groups (axe, polearm) as it includes no thrown weapons. And swords are expensive.

[Steve Plambeck]

I'm very much on the fence about this one (no pun intended).

Between Fencing and Sword Expertise, Two Weapons and then Sword Mastery, separate expertise with daggers, then the main-gauche and it's own sometimes ambiguous or forgettable rules, between all that we have way too many talents and fuzzy borders between them. How did jabbing someone with a straight, pointy blade get so complicated? I'd be tempted to recommend to new players - forget all that and just use an axe!

I too have been very, very close lately to thinking the Fencing talent/skill, and even Two Weapons talent should just get tossed. Fencing swords might and should still have some special characteristics other swords don't have, but taking advantage of those characteristics could just be baked into the other talents. Two Weapons for any particular category of weapons might also be baked in to an expertise talent.

That's what I think on odd numbered days. On even numbered days I can't see dumping a special Fencing skill because it feels so much like it belongs in a fantasy role-playing game. It also defines a type of character, and bristles with romantic overtones.

Even writing my own system from scratch, where I don't have to run into any TFT compatibility issues and build everything to my own liking, I still run into the same complicated interactions between the new sword rules I come up with. I'm still waiting to have an epiphany, but it's been taking years.

[Bill_in_IN]

Fencing has its limitations but for a beginning character its awesome. However, they do hit a limit with respect to weapon damage being limited to sabers. Achieving Fencing Mastery is tough but still worth it in my opinion.

To do the same thing with Sword Expertise, you have to sink lots of IQ to get Two Weapons talent. So, it it is not as versatile for a lower attribute PC. But, when the PC gets above ST 10 they can be a fencer with larger swords. That's when it starts to make a big difference.

I have experimented with both builds. The Fencer can be far more versatile because they have more IQ for other talents. While the two weapons sword experts are less versatile, they end up being great sword fighters that deal out more damage. Both builds have their strengths. A fencer is not just a Sword Expert. They are a Sword Expert with two weapons talent.

I like the granularity between these two character builds. They both work in their own ways.

A good well-rounded adventurer is a build of a Fencer/archer/physicker/tactician.

An effective military type would be the Sword Master with Two Weapons Talent that is a tactician. Leave the physickering to the medics.

[hcobb]

Fencer adds damage per turn by adding DX.

Bill Hook, Human, age 20
ST 10, DX 17, IQ 13, MA 10
Talents include: Acrobatics, Alertness, Courtly Graces, Knife, Master Fencer
Language: Common
Weapons: fine dagger (1d), 2* very fine well balanced sabers (2d+2, +1 DX)
Armor: -3 to be hit

First Shrewd thrust: adjDX 15 for 3d+5 damage, 14.8 DPT
Second Shrewd thrust: adjDX 11 for 3d+5 damage, 9.7 DPT
Total damage per turn: 24.5

Basically slays one and a half foes per turn.

Clay Moore, Human, age 20
ST 12, DX 15, IQ 13, MA 10
Talents include: Alertness, Knife, Shield Expertise, Sword Mastery
Language: Common
Weapons: fine dagger (1d), very fine well-balanced broadsword (2d+4, +1 DX)
Attacks and Damage: Punch (1d-2)
Armor: Small shield stops 2 hits, -3 to be hit

Shrewd blow is 3d+6 at adjDX 12 for 12.2 DPS
So does half the damage of the fencer

[David Bofinger]

The present ACTs, including Fencer, are weapon-specific, generalist in output and dull. They should all go into the bin and be replaced by special abilities which are weapon-independent and output diverse. It isn't worth trying to save Fencer.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by David Bofinger

The present ACTs, including Fencer, are weapon-specific, generalist in output and dull. They should all go into the bin and be replaced by special abilities which are weapon-independent and output diverse. It isn't worth trying to save Fencer.

That would be my preference. Several more specific and less expensive talents would, to my thinking, be better than the RAW talents that offer a host of benefits. I’d do the same to the UC talents. And, in all of this I’d include banishing the main-gauche and replace it with talent-based abilities.

[David Bofinger]

Originally Posted by hcobb

In this variant the knife/sword group gets just two expertises: Dagger and Fencing.

I'm not sure I understand but are you proposing to delete the talent that represents characters like e.g. Sir Lancelot? Why would you want to do that?