Increasing Fatigue?

[TippetsTX]

What if fatigue wasn't 'spent', but 'gained'?

I've always been OK with fatigue and damage pulling from the same pool for spellcasters, but I know that is an issue for some, especially new players. And I get that the effect of what I'm proposing isn't really much different (on its face) than separating ST into two distinct tracks with damage and fatigue reducing their respective stat pool independently, but it feels more right to me somehow... that figures acquire fatigue by doing things that create fatigue.

So here's the proposal...
The character's original/full ST score would represent the max amount of fatigue that one can gain/tolerate. The fatigue level is then tracked as a separate pool. I'm picturing a spot on the character sheet to tally the points up. Once you hit that cap you fall prone, not unconscious, but unable to perform any actions (the exact level of helplessness will require playtesting, obviously).

The idea appeals to me for several reasons...
* There's logic, I think, in having a mechanic that supports the idea of someone growing fatigued, where exertion is a cumulative metric.
* The approach also aligns with the real effects of pushing one's self to (and perhaps past) their physical limits.
* There's a more clear distinction between healing and resting recovery channels.
* The pool I'm proposing would allow for an expansion of how fatigue is applied in the game, opening the door for new fatigue-inducing actions... running, jumping, climbing, swimming and possibly even extended fighting.
* Creating more sources of fatigue potentially adds a real decision point for wizards (taking damage isn't really their choice, after all); actions that have to be weighed against their spellcasting capacity.
* Finally, I avoid creating a new MANA attribute.

[Steve Plambeck]

Bravo Tippets for this whole idea!

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

So here's the proposal...
The character's original/full ST score would represent the max amount of fatigue that one can gain/tolerate. The fatigue level is then tracked as a separate pool. I'm picturing a spot on the character sheet to tally the points up. Once you hit that cap you fall prone...

I've always had separate boxes on my character record sheets for tallying wounds and fatigue. Actually I've assumed everyone does; we've always had to keep separate track because of the different recovery rates for each. So the beauty to this proposal is that it doesn't add one jot of new book keeping to the system. It's all done through a reinterpretation of what the tallies under fatigue mean, and that's elegant.

Could you clarify though what you mean by "that cap" that makes you fall prone but conscious? Do you mean the cap is just the total tallies under fatigue equaling ST, or is it when the combined totals under wounds and fatigue equal ST? Either way it's an improvement, I'm just wondering which way you meant it.

In the system I'm writing for myself (but haven't playtested) I similarly divide the tallies against ST into two boxes I call "Lethal Hits" (where I mark wounds that lead to death) and "Non-Lethal Hits" (where I mark both fatigue and a few other things that can lead to unconsciousness). Whenever the total of the two boxes equals or exceeds ST I call that unconscious, but only when the total under "Lethal Hits" equals or exceeds ST do I call that death. No reason it has to be that way to apply your proposal to TFT, I'm just noting we've been thinking along very parallel lines.

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

* The pool I'm proposing would allow for an expansion of how fatigue is applied in the game, opening the door for new fatigue-inducing actions... running, jumping, climbing, swimming and possibly even extended fighting......
* Finally, I avoid creating a new MANA attribute.

That expansion sounds like a neat thing we could use.

My 80's/90's group did add a Mana attribute, but your proposal makes the need for one obsolete in every way, except one. The only part it doesn't address is that old trope, Conan the Wizard. As long as spell costs are paid for by ST, higher ST makes for a more powerful wizard (the unwanted side-effect being they can also bench press 400 lbs - LOL!) But that's an issue that can be tweaked by other means, and no reason not to use your fine proposal. I really like the ability to apply fatigue costs to all the things you mentioned, and I'd add tackling a big flight of stairs to that list.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

Could you clarify though what you mean by "that cap" that makes you fall prone but conscious? Do you mean the cap is just the total tallies under fatigue equaling ST, or is it when the combined totals under wounds and fatigue equal ST? Either way it's an improvement, I'm just wondering which way you meant it.

The former. With this proposal, damage and fatigue would no longer stack, but remember, spellcasting will now have to compete with other fatiguing actions.

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

In the system I'm writing for myself (but haven't playtested) I similarly divide the tallies against ST into two boxes I call "Lethal Hits" (where I mark wounds that lead to death) and "Non-Lethal Hits" (where I mark both fatigue and a few other things that can lead to unconsciousness). Whenever the total of the two boxes equals or exceeds ST I call that unconscious, but only when the total under "Lethal Hits" equals or exceeds ST do I call that death. No reason it has to be that way to apply your proposal to TFT, I'm just noting we've been thinking along very parallel lines.

I distinguish between 'lethal' and 'non-lethal' damage as well, but those would still come from the same bucket (i.e. ST) under this proposal.

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

My 80's/90's group did add a Mana attribute, but your proposal makes the need for one obsolete in every way, except one. The only part it doesn't address is that old trope, Conan the Wizard. As long as spell costs are paid for by ST, higher ST makes for a more powerful wizard (the unwanted side-effect being they can also bench press 400 lbs - LOL!) But that's an issue that can be tweaked by other means, and no reason not to use your fine proposal. I really like the ability to apply fatigue costs to all the things you mentioned, and I'd add tackling a big flight of stairs to that list.

That's another thing that this idea opens up IMO. Now that fatigue (FA or FG?) is separate from ST, it also becomes a new 'control plane' on which we can hang other rules and effects. For example, why couldn't we have a new talent (let's call it ENDURANCE for now) that increases the character’s FA capacity by 50%? Now the ST 8 wizard can choose to invest their XP there (even if it's costly for them) and get an immediate bump in their spellcasting pool to 12 points. No more spellcasting Conans (unless you really want one).

I really think I'm on to something with this idea.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

The former. With this proposal, damage and fatigue would no longer stack, but remember, spellcasting will now have to compete with other fatiguing actions.

Works for me. I like the fact spellcasting is no longer equivalent to a self-inflicted wound, while it still has to compete with actions that cause fatigue (and now there will be several more such actions, so the wizard still has to make hard choices.) I can't see anyone arguing this makes wizards more powerful.

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

I distinguish between 'lethal' and 'non-lethal' damage as well, but those would still come from the same bucket (i.e. ST) under this proposal.

This works for me too. I've been working on a system that separates lethal and non-lethal damage more than that, but strictly speaking then it's no longer TFT. Your way fits right into TFT, like a slot was ready and just waiting for this.

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

That's another thing that this idea opens up IMO. Now that fatigue (FA or FG?) is separate from ST, it also becomes a new 'control plane' on which we can hang other rules and effects. For example, why couldn't we have a new talent (let's call it ENDURANCE for now) that increases the character’s FA capacity by 50%? Now the ST 8 wizard can choose to invest their XP there (even if it's costly for them) and get an immediate bump in their spellcasting pool to 12 points. No more spellcasting Conans (unless you really want one).

I really think I'm on to something with this idea.

An intriguing possibility. Your new fatigue system works with or without this option, but this second idea opens the door for more spellcasting while indeed eliminating Conan The Wizard - may he rest in peace. The next question with this addition will be how you count the "bonus" fatigue capacity into the Attribute total for purposed of determining XP cost of future increases -- probably multiple good ways to do that.

[TippetsTX]

So now that we have the basic rule defined, I'd like some input around the costs for various actions and activities. I'll start with a few rough ideas for combat...

• HTH (i.e. grappling) should be the most taxing, I think - 1 fatigue per turn
• Melee combat gets harder over time, but assuming characters have proficiency, I don't think fatigue should kick in right away - 1 point per turn after 5 turns (or maybe 1/2 ST in turns rounded down)
• Ranged combat is still tiring, obviously, but it probably shouldn't be as bad as melee - not sure about the cost, though
• Sweeping blows should have their own cost - 2 fatigue per attempt
• Shield rush - 3 fatigue

Thoughts? Too high?

[Shostak]

Shield-rushing is already a dubious action, since the target gets a saving roll, so nerfing it with 3 fatigue strikes me as both unrealistic and undesirable.

Needing to keep track of turns in groups of 5 to add fatigue seems way too easy to forget.

Sweeping blows are rare, in my experience, and often ineffective due to the DX penalty involved. Again, I’m not sure that imposing a fatigue penalty is desirable.

[timm meyers]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

So now that we have the basic rule defined, I'd like some input around the costs for various actions and activities. I'll start with a few rough ideas for combat...

• HTH (i.e. grappling) should be the most taxing, I think - 1 fatigue per turn
• Melee combat gets harder over time, but assuming characters have proficiency, I don't think fatigue should kick in right away - 1 point per turn after 5 turns (or maybe 1/2 ST in turns rounded down)
• Ranged combat is still tiring, obviously, but it probably shouldn't be as bad as melee - not sure about the cost, though
• Sweeping blows should have their own cost - 2 fatigue per attempt
• Shield rush - 3 fatigue

Thoughts? Too high?

Tracking fatigue within RAW to simulate the cost and effect when casting is a valid complication and relatively noninvasive.
Your idea to redefine the process of magic from a "reservoir" of ST to one of a "capacity" to channel/direct magic ST is brilliant. You retain the original mechanics in regard to record keeping but solve many of the associated self-inflicted wound anomalies many struggle with.
However, if the concept then requires for the fatigue track to be applied universally to the warrior PC and thus additional rules and costs for actions undermines imho the elegance of your proposal. (end editorial)

Fatigue costs for actions?

Full moves ie. sprinting - 1 fatigue
Understrength weapon use -1 fatigue per 1 ST below weapon requirement
Does the use of acrobatics or unique weapon effects such as lasso (tug of war) or net/rope spell (struggling to escape) require penelties in your system?

[JohnPaulB]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

So now that we have the basic rule defined, I'd like some input around the costs for various actions and activities. I'll start with a few rough ideas for combat...

• HTH (i.e. grappling) should be the most taxing, I think - 1 fatigue per turn
• Melee combat gets harder over time, but assuming characters have proficiency, I don't think fatigue should kick in right away - 1 point per turn after 5 turns (or maybe 1/2 ST in turns rounded down)
• Ranged combat is still tiring, obviously, but it probably shouldn't be as bad as melee - not sure about the cost, though
• Sweeping blows should have their own cost - 2 fatigue per attempt
• Shield rush - 3 fatigue

Make all the fatigue for these activities cost 1 point fST (fatigue). But they only take this fatigue if they fail an ST savings roll.

This will cut down keeping track of the fatigue.

[JohnPaulB]

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

The only part it doesn't address is that old trope, Conan the Wizard. As long as spell costs are paid for by ST, higher ST makes for a more powerful wizard (the unwanted side-effect being they can also bench press 400 lbs - LOL!) But that's an issue that can be tweaked by other means, and no reason not to use your fine proposal. I really like the ability to apply fatigue costs to all the things you mentioned, and I'd add tackling a big flight of stairs to that list.

I handled the old trope, Conan the Wizard by envisioning what my wizard was likely to be like. Was he slightly above the normal bell-curve srength? Then make the character ST=11. If I wanted to grow my wizard more psychically powerful, let him continue up, but split the ST; say ST=11/15. Any hand weapon the character used could only go up to ST=11. But the wizard had the psychic endurance at 15.

I would still use the Legacy RAW of 11 damage will kill and a combination of fST and damage achieving 11 would kill, but the character would get 4 fST (15 - 11 = 4) that it could burn before reaching death. In other words, burn the over amount of psychic energy before it starts affecting death.

-----------------------------
Not part of this original post but pertinent is IQ.

If you imagine your character to be slightly higher IQ than the norm, you could make him IQ=11. He could start out learning 11 points of talents/spells. If I wanted to grow my character more mentally powerful, but still the average Joe, let him continue XPing up, but split the IQ; say IQ=11/15. This would allow the character to learn higher talents (by paying for them), but still maintain that slightly above average perception/learning ability. This goes for perception rolls at IQ=11. You could learn up to IQ 15 level talents, but you perform them at IQ=11.

I've applied this to my Dumb Fighter who started with IQ=8. He was a Forrest Gump type. So when I raised his IQ up to learn better weapon talents, I did a split and kept his rolls at IQ=8. At IQ=9/12 (I did raise his base up one point), he still missed many disbelieves and observations, but he was able to learn to use some appropriate higher talents like TOUGHNESS or Shield Expertise.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

Once you hit that cap you fall prone, not unconscious, but unable to perform any actions (the exact level of helplessness will require playtesting, obviously).

This looks to me to be the only significant change from RAW, unless you are advocating for wounds and fatigue not summing to determine whether or not a figure is alive/conscious/reeling.