Autodueling and such!

[2097]

Not sure whether this should go in the Car Wars forum or the GURPS one.

OK here's what I have:

• A white box of "Car Wars" from 2014, 2015, or 2016. That's 4th ed, right?
• GURPS Autoduel for the original GURPS
• GURPS Autoduel Car Warriors also for the original
• GURPS Autoduel Second Edition for GURPS 3e
• GURPS Action 6 Tricked Out Rides for GURPS 4e

The older GURPS Autoduel book says:

When there are a number of vehicles moving at greatly different speeds, the GURPS movement system becomes less realistic. For those familiar and comfortable with Car Wars rules, feel free to use the movement system from that game.

The second GURPS Autoduel says:

Some players may find themselves saying, "That's not how they do it in Car Wars!"
Of course not. This is GURPS.
However, when the PCs jump behind the wheel and head off into battle, there's no reason that the GM can't pull out the old turning key and switch to the Car Wars movement and combat rules. This works particularly well if you like cinematic battles with cars spinning 90° about at 60 mph in a fifth of a second.

It seems to be a very different system. It also says that there are "vehicle construction rules compatible with GURPS Vehicles" but I can't find 'em. Ah, dammit! Another page says

For the dedicated GURPS players who want to jump into the world of Autoduel, the mechanics of vehicle construction, weapon design, movement and combat are laid out in GURPS Vehicles, Second Edition. You will need that book to play GURPS Autoduel.

So why did it say that this book does have those systems

So the GURPS Autoduel first version still uses a turning key, saying that the grid (and it provides hex and square options) are only for placing houses. It seems to hew much closer to Car Wars

Anyway that's what I have currently. Looking to run an RPG campaign primarily, with a GM and adventures where my friends can go on car fights or just do whatever in a sandboxy world. But it seems like what I have here is four slightly different games.

I have the Basic sets for 3e and 4e so if I go the 1e route, I'm gonna have to get that basic set. Or if I go the 3e route I'd need Vehicles it seems like (contrary to what the back of that book says). And for 4e, I have Action 6 and 7 (and remember reading the first two way back), probably I'd have to go get some of the other ones.

Not sure what some of the pros and cons are of all these options

[2097]

Is the 2e basic set available on w23?

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by 2097

Is the 2e basic set available on w23?

Sadly, no. It was produced before everything was done on computers, so it would have to be scanned and OCR'ed. SJ Games have a lot of books in that position, and presumably don't expect that GURPS 1e and 2e would sell well.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by 2097

Not sure whether this should go in the Car Wars forum or the GURPS one.

OK here's what I have:

• A white box of "Car Wars" from 2014, 2015, or 2016. That's 4th ed, right?
• GURPS Autoduel for the original GURPS
• GURPS Autoduel Car Warriors also for the original
• GURPS Autoduel Second Edition for GURPS 3e
• GURPS Action 6 Tricked Out Rides for GURPS 4e

s

Your Car Wars is newer than any edition I've ever seen and thus I can say noting in particular about it.

The first Gurps Autoduel you have predated HT 1e and is thus incompatible with anything that came after that book and this includes Gurps 3e and all supplements to it. It might be closer to your Car Wars version but its' weapon damages and ranged combat resolution just won't work with 3e or later.

Never had Car Warriors.

Autoduel 2e is mainstream Gurps 3e and the construction rules it mentions probably were Ve2., They may have been planning to sell books or magazine artiles of cars built with Ve2 but I don't beleive that happened.

The last product you mention is 4e and I may have it somewhere but I have looked at it more than casually..

[2097]

Thanks for the info, guys! Much apprec!

Hohoho! So after glancing through GURPS Autoduel 1e and 2e, and Tricked-Out Rides, I started reading Autoduel 1e more carefully and pretty soon I started hacking on it. Implementing two rules from Autoduel 2e that I thought seemed fun, but mostly working on what essentially ended up being something that I later found out was akin to the control table from Car Wars but with crash result built in.

And then the next day I read Car Wars! 4e I think it is. And wow! I realize I posted this in the wrong forum (it shoulda been "Car Wars (older editions)") because it already has everything I need. A more elegant control table than the one I made, and faster since it doesn't require rolls on safe spaces, and a chapter for making characters that was plenty fine grained for my tastes! (I was about to strip the GURPS version down to something waaay simpler than what CW provides.)


Conclusions:

1. Car Wars is already enough of a roleplaying game for my tastes. Happy with it!
2. I can play it RAW, I don't need to make changes (only tools, see below)
3. I'm glad I have the Autoduel books because I get "diegetic" info from them, roleplaying info, worldbuilding info, while using Car Wars for rules.

Tools: for example, I wanna make a board that's basically the control table scaled up enough so pawns could fit on the spaces, several pawns per space if need be, and also the Movement Chart aligned by speeds. So each vehicle / pedestrian would, in addition to their token on the map, also a pawn on that board.

End of each turn, each pawn moves left according to their modified handling class, which could be written on the pawn (probably gonna use wooden discs + marker), or we could use dice turned to that number. Each pawn moves as many steps left as their modified handling class up to a max of that number.

And spending handling status (or "accruing D" or however you wanna phrase it) means moving to the right that many spaces (just “clonking into” the rightmost edge if you’re there, just as you can’t go higher than your modified handling class), and then (regardless if you started on the space you landed on or not) if you're on a crash, you go to the crash table, and if you're a number, you roll to see if you go to the crash table, and you can see the crash table mod right there on the same line!

Accelerating means moving down orthogonally and decelerating means moving up. Good way to keep track of everyone's speed and the Movement Chart is right there on the same line as the pawn.

Fun fun fun ♥︎

[sparcipx]

I'm a longtime classic Car Wars player/gm, and am currently running a couple of GURPS Autoduel games in 4e. It was difficult at first to get my players (my Car Wars buddies of 40+ years) onboard, but we muddled (and continue to muddle) through it.

Just curious, is it vehicle design putting you off? The GURPS movement system? Or do you just want a simpler rule system?

If you haven't already seen it, this thread links to a document that offers a solution to the first problem. My own tweaked version (the one we use) can be found here.

[2097]

Originally Posted by sparcipx

I'm a longtime classic Car Wars player/gm, and am currently running a couple of GURPS Autoduel games in 4e. It was difficult at first to get my players (my Car Wars buddies of 40+ years) onboard, but we muddled (and continue to muddle) through it.

Just curious, is it vehicle design putting you off? The GURPS movement system? Or do you just want a simpler rule system?

If you haven't already seen it, this thread links to a document that offers a solution to the first problem. My own tweaked version (the one we use) can be found here.

One reason for going with Car Wars 4e (I checked, I have a 2015 printing of 4e) is to frugally enjoy a box I already have.

I have GURPS Basic Set 4e and 3e but I don't have Vehicles any version. I have Action Tricked Out Rides for 4e so I'd need… it's Exploits, right?


There's also… I don't know how the Vehicles system works but in the first GURPS Autoduel, you roll 3d6 for every single manuever and hazard, up to three times per second. In CWC, you don't need to roll if you're safe or XX, only if you're in between, and it's only a single d6, and you don't need to look anything up, the number is right there (for example if it says 3 you need to roll 3 or higher). Fun!

The phase-based movement system is built right in (it's an optional rule in Autoduel—that was the one thing I wanted to take from Autoduel 2e for GURPS 3e, it seemed a li'l better there).

Also the character system is simpler than GURPS (while still being a step up coming from Moldvay Basic). I can still use the scenarios and situations from GURPS but the character system is more than enough.

The math also seems more robust in CWC (2d + adds rather than 3d6 roll low; less extreme bell curve).

Thank you for sending your ruleset! I see you're also using Tricked Out Rides and CWC.

[sparcipx]

Originally Posted by 2097

One reason for going with Car Wars 4e (I checked, I have a 2015 printing of 4e) is to frugally enjoy a box I already have.

I hear ya, we also have too much $$$ invested in the classic CW line since the mid-80s. Rather than shell out for new GURPS-sized miniatures etc, we still use our Car Wars counters in our GURPS 4e games with 5 hex/inch paper. 5 hexes = 5 yards/15 ft which corresponds with CW scale. Convert the Classic CW Movement chart speeds to yards/sec et voila, GURPS movement in 1/10th second increments. I should probably document this at some point...

I have GURPS Basic Set 4e and 3e but I don't have Vehicles any version. I have Action Tricked Out Rides for 4e so I'd need… it's Exploits, right?

I've only really used the chase rules from Action 2: Exploits. They play well with the Rush Hour scenario in Autoduel Quarterly 2/3 when simulating traffic. Lotta prepwork required statting vehicles, though.

There's also… I don't know how the Vehicles system works but in the first GURPS Autoduel, you roll 3d6 for every single manuever and hazard, up to three times per second. In CWC, you don't need to roll if you're safe or XX, only if you're in between, and it's only a single d6, and you don't need to look anything up, the number is right there (for example if it says 3 you need to roll 3 or higher). Fun!

The phase-based movement system is built right in (it's an optional rule in Autoduel—that was the one thing I wanted to take from Autoduel 2e for GURPS 3e, it seemed a li'l better there).

See my comment above regarding phase-based movement. If you have any questions, I'm happy to answer.

As for using GURPS Vehicles 2e, I've never taken the time to learn, myself. I bought the GURPS Vehicle Builder program for 3e but have never really used it. I typically convert existing CW vehicles (even the "illegal" designs from the AADA Vehicle Guides and Combat Showcase) using the process in Chris Goodwin's GURPS Autoduel RPG 4e doc, my tweaked version, and Describing Vehicles from Pyramid 3/120. I also hand-wave or eyeball things that don't quite jive (like acceleration), there's always things that won't convert cleanly (or at all). The important part is the 4e stat block, IMHO.

Also the character system is simpler than GURPS (while still being a step up coming from Moldvay Basic). I can still use the scenarios and situations from GURPS but the character system is more than enough.

The math also seems more robust in CWC (2d + adds rather than 3d6 roll low; less extreme bell curve).

Thank you for sending your ruleset! I see you're also using Tricked Out Rides and CWC.

Chris Goodwin did the original doc, I just tweaked it so it jived with Describing Vehicles from Pyramid 3/120. I'm slowly CW converting weapons/accessories to proper 4e stats and correlating with similar weapons/accessories in GURPS High-Tech etc but my schedule doesn't leave a lot of time...

We're also playtesting the breaking out of certain classic CW maneuvers (like the Bootlegger Reverse and T-Stop) from the Driving (Wheeled) skill into separate Techniques, once I wrap my head around things.

Action 6 is great for superspy type armed vehicles but not so much for Autoduelling machines. It is a good starting point for devising one's own system. We've used it with the GURPS After The End books to design vehicles for GURPSified Chassis & Crossbow/"PTSD Maxwell" scenarios to great effect.