Reducing Will against User

beautyandnotthebeast · 01-23-2024, 03:49 PM

I was wondering how to make a ability that reduces the targets will against the users mental control/influence powers.

I know Affliction can reduce IQ, but how would modeling it to affect just Will work?
And how big would the limitation for just the users mental powers be (or all attempts to control the victim, including simple social skills)?

johndallman · 01-23-2024, 04:08 PM

Affliction (Attribute Penalty) is +10% for -1 to IQ or DX, or +5% for -1 to HT or ST. That matches "+5% for each 10 points of Attribute loss", so you could plausibly say "+2.5% for each -1 to general Will."

I wouldn't give much of a discount for "Will only reduced vs. me", maybe dropping it to +2% at best.

David Johnston2 · 01-23-2024, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johndallman

Affliction (Attribute Penalty) is +10% for -1 to IQ or DX, or +5% for -1 to HT or ST. That matches "+5% for each 10 points of Attribute loss", so you could plausibly say "+2.5% for each -1 to general Will."

I wouldn't. Reducing Will can actually be more useful than reducing IQ, since a mind control subject with unimpaired Perception is more useful.

Donny Brook · 01-24-2024, 08:16 AM

I also think +5% per -1 is the cheapest I would allow for any attribute and even that is open to abuse.

Anaraxes · 01-24-2024, 08:58 AM

Pricing this trait is a time to recall that thread that runs through the design that PCs can and will arrange events to their advantage; conversely, most players will choose synergistic abilities and flog them at every occasion. So, character point prices aren't inevitably symmetrical on positive and negative versions of traits, and the Accessibility cost chart isn't remotely the same thing as percentage of time you get to use an ability.

So, while noting the point cost of the affected attribute is a good observation, the answer unfortunately isn't really as simple as going for the tidy 1% per 2 CP of attribute formula.

"Reduce Will" is nearly always going to be used in the context of improving the Contest for some other ability built to have a Will resistance. (The previously-mentioned Mind Control being a good example. That doesn't just remove an enemy, it switches it to your side, essentially doubling its power in combat, plus all of the non-combat uses of such abilities for information-gathering, infiltration, and deception.)

In that sense, reducing enemy Will is more like increasing the character's attack value with Reliability and the like. But it's generally even more effective because of the Rule of 16, plus the way the 3d6 probability curve works, reducing the enemy's Will of 8-12 produces a bigger skew in the outcome, point for point, than increasing the attacker's skill of 12-16 (at least!).

I'm okay with -5%, as reducing Will is less broadly effective than reducing IQ or DX. But it does seem to me to be in the same focused-but-exploitable category of ST or HT.

01-23-2024, 03:49 PM	#1
beautyandnotthebeast Join Date: Mar 2023	Reducing Will against User I was wondering how to make a ability that reduces the targets will against the users mental control/influence powers. I know Affliction can reduce IQ, but how would modeling it to affect just Will work? And how big would the limitation for just the users mental powers be (or all attempts to control the victim, including simple social skills)?

01-23-2024, 04:08 PM	#2
johndallman Night Watchman Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Cambridge, UK	Re: Reducing Will against User Affliction (Attribute Penalty) is +10% for -1 to IQ or DX, or +5% for -1 to HT or ST. That matches "+5% for each 10 points of Attribute loss", so you could plausibly say "+2.5% for each -1 to general Will." I wouldn't give much of a discount for "Will only reduced vs. me", maybe dropping it to +2% at best. __________________ The Path of Cunning. Indexes: DFRPG Characters, Advantage of the Week, Disadvantage of the Week, Skill of the Week, Techniques.

01-24-2024, 08:16 AM	#4
Donny Brook Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Snoopy's basement	Re: Reducing Will against User I also think +5% per -1 is the cheapest I would allow for any attribute and even that is open to abuse.

01-24-2024, 08:58 AM	#5
Anaraxes Join Date: Sep 2007	Re: Reducing Will against User Pricing this trait is a time to recall that thread that runs through the design that PCs can and will arrange events to their advantage; conversely, most players will choose synergistic abilities and flog them at every occasion. So, character point prices aren't inevitably symmetrical on positive and negative versions of traits, and the Accessibility cost chart isn't remotely the same thing as percentage of time you get to use an ability. So, while noting the point cost of the affected attribute is a good observation, the answer unfortunately isn't really as simple as going for the tidy 1% per 2 CP of attribute formula. "Reduce Will" is nearly always going to be used in the context of improving the Contest for some other ability built to have a Will resistance. (The previously-mentioned Mind Control being a good example. That doesn't just remove an enemy, it switches it to your side, essentially doubling its power in combat, plus all of the non-combat uses of such abilities for information-gathering, infiltration, and deception.) In that sense, reducing enemy Will is more like increasing the character's attack value with Reliability and the like. But it's generally even more effective because of the Rule of 16, plus the way the 3d6 probability curve works, reducing the enemy's Will of 8-12 produces a bigger skew in the outcome, point for point, than increasing the attacker's skill of 12-16 (at least!). I'm okay with -5%, as reducing Will is less broadly effective than reducing IQ or DX. But it does seem to me to be in the same focused-but-exploitable category of ST or HT.