Cost of living and Create Food

mirtexxan · 07-23-2023, 07:18 PM

Hi, would you allow a reduced cost of living for a Cleric with Create Food?
If not, why?
If yes, why?

Is there any social or practical consideration to be made?

Me and my player have agreed to reduce the cost of living to 100$ per week, assuming that he consumes a nice meal per day in the inn (to avoid social issues, and also to make a more believable character that still enjoys "real" food now and then), and the other two he creates himself.

corwyn · 07-23-2023, 07:42 PM

Part of our social contract is that Create Food doesn't taste that good and that when they can they eat real food so I don't reduce it at all. At the same time, their down time often comes at the end of saving whatever city they happen to be in so they often get free room and board. But I don't do a lot of dungeon crawl so ymmv.

sir_pudding · 07-23-2023, 07:45 PM

I would definitely allow as complimentary to the Survival or Urban Surivial roll to avoid Starvation.

mburr0003 · 07-23-2023, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mirtexxan

Hi, would you allow a reduced cost of living for a Cleric with Create Food?

Depends. How much am I veering away from running DF/RPG by the RAW?

RAW:
No. The 150$ is part and parcel with the cost of living in town. The rules spell out how to get by without paying 150$ per week, and Create Food isn't among them.

You can just say that the room and board they're paying for is just that, room and board. He can prefer to eat Created Food, but the bed and breakfast they're staying at doesn't give rebates to skinflint clerics.

Now, might I give them it as a Complimentary Skill as sir_pudding suggests, because even the rules don't always spell out every situation. But the 150$ per week is pretty clear that it's not for anything in specific, it's for "everything and anything", so it's explicitly set-up to stop "but we brought back more than a week's food and water, why do I have to 'pay' to at in town". You pay to eat in town, or you roll versus Survival or Urban Survival.

Veering from RAW:
Do as though wilt shall be the whole of the law. In this case since fresh food costs less, roughly usually half of what preserved food costs, I'd cut their weekly costs by $20 (because it's both pentaphiliac and rounder than 21$).

Polkageist · 07-24-2023, 09:28 AM

Had a similar discussion with a scout with the 'avoids crowds' disadvantage and so tended to set up a little tent camp outside of town to satisfy that need, and hunt rabbits and collect wild lettuce for food, that sort of thing.

Our conclusion was that the $150/week still applies even when they're gathering their own food and sleeping in a farmer's field or copse of trees because it's covering all the other incidental costs of living. Incidental bits of equipment that need repair or replacement, spares, consumables, and a little somethin' somethin' for the farmer to look the other way regarding the weirdo camping out by the north pasture.

It rather became a fun little aside to justify the $150 expenses against the traits of the character that would seemingly lower the cost. It was fun to figure out that they're leaving a little pile of cash by the farmer's door for their trouble! This cleric of yours, it'd be a good character building question to ask 'You're feeding yourself using Create Food, so if that money isn't being spent on food what is it being spent on?' As a cleric there are tithes, charitable donations, expensive unguents and oils to conduct their prayers, etc.

mirtexxan · 07-24-2023, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polkageist

Had a similar discussion with a scout with the 'avoids crowds' disadvantage and so tended to set up a little tent camp outside of town to satisfy that need, and hunt rabbits and collect wild lettuce for food, that sort of thing.

Our conclusion was that the $150/week still applies even when they're gathering their own food and sleeping in a farmer's field or copse of trees because it's covering all the other incidental costs of living. Incidental bits of equipment that need repair or replacement, spares, consumables, and a little somethin' somethin' for the farmer to look the other way regarding the weirdo camping out by the north pasture.

It rather became a fun little aside to justify the $150 expenses against the traits of the character that would seemingly lower the cost. It was fun to figure out that they're leaving a little pile of cash by the farmer's door for their trouble! This cleric of yours, it'd be a good character building question to ask 'You're feeding yourself using Create Food, so if that money isn't being spent on food what is it being spent on?' As a cleric there are tithes, charitable donations, expensive unguents and oils to conduct their prayers, etc.

This is a very nice way of looking at this issue.

I propose this ruling:

"Downtime" in the city: abstract $150 per week and roleplay however you like how do you spend them. You obtain no advantages nor disadvantages in any case. You have only the option to forego the sum entirely by using the "raw" options.

"Adventure" in the city. Go day by the day with the level of detail you prefer, as far as you want, but if you choose to do so, there is no "abstract" discount for anything. You must puy separately for each and every object and service.

no dm god · 07-24-2023, 10:21 AM

I'm very confused, why not?

Sometimes you have to put the RAW aside when the "rule of common sense" is bigger. In this case, a spell that let you create food from thin air obviously has a noticeable impact on the cost of living considering that food, by RAW, is the biggest expense in a day. I'd say 100$/week is even too high, but acceptable if one good meal per day is included.

Justifying this arbitrary player abuse with "oh, but what about tithes, charitable donations, expensive unguents and oils to conduct your prayers?" would make me pretty mad as a player, since you can use the same argument with every class: A warrior will need to sharpen his sword, clean and polish his armor, then waste more money on training equipment that wear out faster and so on.
At this point you might as well say that the Survival skill doesn't help to reduce the cost for food too, since I literally see no difference between this skill and Create Food.

And as a player, hearing that since I don't spend that money for food I HAVE TO spend that money for the other things mentioned I would expect that since all the other players spend all their money for food and a place to sleep, they are just just surviving in conditions barely suitable for living, with absolutely nothing extra.

Also this is supposed to be a roleplay adventure game, who cares about the RAW of the cost of living, creating a credible and immersive environment is more important, while also I see no need to deny a negligible money advantage to someone that invested points to have that advantage.

mburr0003 · 07-24-2023, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by no dm god

Also this is supposed to be a roleplay adventure game, who cares about the RAW of the cost of living, creating a credible and immersive environment is more important, while also I see no need to deny a negligible money advantage to someone that invested points to have that advantage.

This is for DF/RPG. So, therefore, it's per the social contract of playing DF/RPG where 'verisimilitude' is a dirty word and town living is literally abstracted to a few rolls, marking off money, and then heading out to the next dungeon.

If your group does not play that way, cool. But it isn't "arbitrary player abuse" or any other nonsense. There are ways in the rules to avoid the "living in town tax", that's it.

Lastly, food doesn't cost that much, deciding that Create Food will cut your town Living Expenses by a third when even Rations cost less 50$ for a week? That's an abuse of logic.

Balor Patch · 10-20-2023, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by no dm god

I'm very confused, why not?

[...]

Also this is supposed to be a roleplay adventure game, who cares about the RAW of the cost of living, creating a credible and immersive environment is more important, while also I see no need to deny a negligible money advantage to someone that invested points to have that advantage.

The primary reason is to avoid dealing with a "credible and immersive" environment. Town costs $150/week, Town is safe, Town doesn't need to deal with fiddly stuff when adventure awaits!

If you and your players want to make living in town (no capitalization) a focus of your game and enjoy the fiddly stuff then do that instead.

Carlos · 10-20-2023, 06:23 AM

I was searching about this subject and found this topic.

Dungeon Fantasy 2 says:

p. 4:
"Starving: If nobody succeeds, the GM can say “A week passes,” dock everyone $150 for cost of living, and let them try again."

p. 15:
"each week the party stays in town (at $150 apiece for food and lodging)" (emphasis added)

So food is clearly part of the $150/week cost to live in a town. So if a delver can use magic to create his own food (and it doesn't matter if it's delicious like Essential Food or just edible like Create Food), he won't spend as much as the other delver who needs to buy food.

The question is: How much of that $150/week is for food (the 3 meals per day) and how much is for lodging? The book doesn't say, but we can have an idea because DF1 (p. 23) says that Rations cost $2. That's a total of $6 per day and $42 per week.

07-23-2023, 07:18 PM	#1
mirtexxan Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Italy	Cost of living and Create Food Hi, would you allow a reduced cost of living for a Cleric with Create Food? If not, why? If yes, why? Is there any social or practical consideration to be made? Me and my player have agreed to reduce the cost of living to 100$ per week, assuming that he consumes a nice meal per day in the inn (to avoid social issues, and also to make a more believable character that still enjoys "real" food now and then), and the other two he creates himself.

07-23-2023, 07:42 PM	#2
corwyn MIB Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Saskatoon, SK	Re: Cost of living and Create Food Part of our social contract is that Create Food doesn't taste that good and that when they can they eat real food so I don't reduce it at all. At the same time, their down time often comes at the end of saving whatever city they happen to be in so they often get free room and board. But I don't do a lot of dungeon crawl so ymmv. __________________ MiB 7704 Playing: GURPS Nordlond Dragons of Hosgarth Running Savage Worlds Slipstream (Flash Gordon style pulp)

07-23-2023, 07:45 PM	#3
sir_pudding Wielder of Smart Pants Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Ventura CA	Re: Cost of living and Create Food I would definitely allow as complimentary to the Survival or Urban Surivial roll to avoid Starvation.

07-24-2023, 09:28 AM	#5
Polkageist Join Date: Sep 2007	Re: Cost of living and Create Food Had a similar discussion with a scout with the 'avoids crowds' disadvantage and so tended to set up a little tent camp outside of town to satisfy that need, and hunt rabbits and collect wild lettuce for food, that sort of thing. Our conclusion was that the $150/week still applies even when they're gathering their own food and sleeping in a farmer's field or copse of trees because it's covering all the other incidental costs of living. Incidental bits of equipment that need repair or replacement, spares, consumables, and a little somethin' somethin' for the farmer to look the other way regarding the weirdo camping out by the north pasture. It rather became a fun little aside to justify the $150 expenses against the traits of the character that would seemingly lower the cost. It was fun to figure out that they're leaving a little pile of cash by the farmer's door for their trouble! This cleric of yours, it'd be a good character building question to ask 'You're feeding yourself using Create Food, so if that money isn't being spent on food what is it being spent on?' As a cleric there are tithes, charitable donations, expensive unguents and oils to conduct their prayers, etc.

07-24-2023, 10:21 AM	#7
no dm god Join Date: Jul 2023	Re: Cost of living and Create Food I'm very confused, why not? Sometimes you have to put the RAW aside when the "rule of common sense" is bigger. In this case, a spell that let you create food from thin air obviously has a noticeable impact on the cost of living considering that food, by RAW, is the biggest expense in a day. I'd say 100$/week is even too high, but acceptable if one good meal per day is included. Justifying this arbitrary player abuse with "oh, but what about tithes, charitable donations, expensive unguents and oils to conduct your prayers?" would make me pretty mad as a player, since you can use the same argument with every class: A warrior will need to sharpen his sword, clean and polish his armor, then waste more money on training equipment that wear out faster and so on. At this point you might as well say that the Survival skill doesn't help to reduce the cost for food too, since I literally see no difference between this skill and Create Food. And as a player, hearing that since I don't spend that money for food I HAVE TO spend that money for the other things mentioned I would expect that since all the other players spend all their money for food and a place to sleep, they are just just surviving in conditions barely suitable for living, with absolutely nothing extra. Also this is supposed to be a roleplay adventure game, who cares about the RAW of the cost of living, creating a credible and immersive environment is more important, while also I see no need to deny a negligible money advantage to someone that invested points to have that advantage.

10-20-2023, 06:23 AM	#10
Carlos Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Campos dos Goytacazes - RJ - Brazil	Re: Cost of living and Create Food I was searching about this subject and found this topic. Dungeon Fantasy 2 says: p. 4: "Starving: If nobody succeeds, the GM can say “A week passes,” dock everyone $150 for cost of living, and let them try again." p. 15: "each week the party stays in town (at $150 apiece for food and lodging)" (emphasis added) So food is clearly part of the $150/week cost to live in a town. So if a delver can use magic to create his own food (and it doesn't matter if it's delicious like Essential Food or just edible like Create Food), he won't spend as much as the other delver who needs to buy food. The question is: How much of that $150/week is for food (the 3 meals per day) and how much is for lodging? The book doesn't say, but we can have an idea because DF1 (p. 23) says that Rations cost $2. That's a total of $6 per day and $42 per week.