Talent for the weak: Cestus

[hcobb]

1. Will striking with a cestus into an adjacent hex do less damage than a bare handed punch for characters of ST 15 or higher?
2. Does wearing a cestus impose a -1 DX penalty? ("Like a small shield, it carries a -1 DX penalty." ITL 111) What if two are worn?
3. Does wearing two cesti give a -2 DX penalty and stop two hits?
4. Is there a restriction on which weapons an Expert Cestus user can defend against?
5. Does the full Two Weapons talent help with a pair of cesti, or one plus some other weapon?
6. If a cestus and dagger user gets into HTH must she drop her dagger?

[WFCoyote]

Look at a real picture of a cestus, they are not Wolverine claws, they fill the hand. There are gloves with blades, this is not a cestus, a cestus was used in ancient battles and in the arena.

[Axly Suregrip]

Henry, good questions. I will say that your first 5 questions are up to the GM as the rules are not clear. Several of these cestus questions we have already discussed here. Search the forum to see how other resolve it, but there is no definitive answer from the rules.

6. If a cestus and dagger user gets into HTH must she drop her dagger?

ITL 117 about HTH combat: "the defender drops his ready weapon and/or shield (unless weapon is a main-gouche or dagger)". So, no a dagger may always be held while in HTH, even if you have a cestus on the other hand.

There are no rules for striking twice in HTH even if you have two weapons, so I would not allow it, but at least the combatant will have a choice and a back up weapon while in HTH.


BTW:

I like this page for cestus historical information and images:
https://www.onlymartialarts.site/his...-boxing-glove/

This ancient Greek sculpture shows a boxer with cestus. It is from 300-200 BC. You can see this at the Getty museum just north of Los Angeles off the 405 highway. A great museum for this and much more:
https://www.getty.edu/art/exhibitions/power_pathos/

[hcobb]

The only rules for striking twice in HTH are for two cestuses. (DX +4 -3, ITL 113) and UC V (ITL 44)

Also see "You may use only one dagger (or main-gauche) in HTH." -Melee rulebook page 18.

[Axly Suregrip]

I am changing my view on how cesti work:

- Damage in HTH and in melee is always "By ST" +3. Based on the weapons table stating "By ST"

- Pg 113 reference to two attacks is melee only, and not HTH, because it states this is used as in boxing. Boxing is not grappling which is HTH.

- Pg 113 reference to treat it like a main-gauche will be in its use to block damage like a small shield for the cost of DX when using it as an second weapon. That is, as a "left-handed weapon" it gets both the DX -1 and the -1 damage protection.


So, my opinion/answers to your questions are:

1. Will striking with a cestus into an adjacent hex do less damage than a bare handed punch for characters of ST 15 or higher?

- no, since both damage are the same.

2. Does wearing a cestus impose a -1 DX penalty? ("Like a small shield, it carries a -1 DX penalty." ITL 111) What if two are worn?

- yes, but only if it is worn as a second weapon.

3. Does wearing two cesti give a -2 DX penalty and stop two hits?

- no. Only the off-hand cestus gives both the -1 DX and the -1 hits, as per the main-gauche rules on page 111, in the section titled "Left-Hand Weapons."

4. Is there a restriction on which weapons an Expert Cestus user can defend against?

- yes. It has the same limitations as the main-gauche. Pg 111, "main-gauche, acts as a shield to parry 1 hit per attack, from non-missile, one-handed weapons only, from your front hexes." And since pg 113 states "A single cestus is treated exactly like a main-gauche".

5. Does the full Two Weapons talent help with a pair of cesti, or one plus some other weapon?

- Probably. Extra skills should impart an advantage. Exactly how, I'll worry about this when I see someone with both.

6. If a cestus and dagger user gets into HTH must she drop her dagger?

- no. Daggers don't need to be dropped in HTH. She gets to choose which she attacks with each turn, since she only gets one attack in HTH.

[TippetsTX]

I replaced this talent.
https://forums.sjgames.com/showpost....0&postcount=49

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip

I am changing my view on how cesti work:

- Damage in HTH and in melee is always "By ST" +3. Based on the weapons table stating "By ST"

We did it that way in our Classic TFT days. ITL says +3 in HTH for a cestus. So using that guideline and the fact that Reptile men get a +2 to Bare Hands damage (BHD) for claws. I'm considering following that lead. The cestus, by it's very nature should be linked to ST based BHD. So, in Melee that would be BHD+2 and in HTH BHD+3. But I'm currently using the +3 BHD and HTH as you stated. Its simple and it doesn't upset the balance of the TFT universe.

Now, add Cestus expertise to bump it to the next level.

[Axly Suregrip]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

We did it that way in our Classic TFT days. ITL says +3 in HTH for a cestus. So using that guideline and the fact that Reptile men get a +2 to Bare Hands damage (BHD) for claws. I'm considering following that lead. The cestus, by it's very nature should be linked to ST based BHD. So, in Melee that would be BHD+2 and in HTH BHD+3. But I'm currently using the +3 BHD and HTH as you stated. Its simple and it does upset the balance of the TFT universe.

Now, add Cestus expertise to bump it to the next level.

I think that is a good extrapolation: Cestus +2 BHD melee.

The rules say a "single cestus" is like a main-gauche. I take this to mean the off-hand use of a cestus. So, I will apply the DX -1 to any one with one or two cestus (that is, never -2) and it will also carry over to in HTH. Harder to grapple with your hands bound to weights.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip

I think that is a good extrapolation: Cestus +2 BHD melee.

The rules say a "single cestus" is like a main-gauche. I take this to mean the off-hand use of a cestus. So, I will apply the DX -1 to any one with one or two cestus (that is, never -2) and it will also carry over to in HTH. Harder to grapple with your hands bound to weights.

Correction of a previous statement:

Its simple and it doesn't upset the balance of the TFT universe.

The rest of your post makes sense as a decent application. However, I have experimented with a cestus wielder on both hands and has two weapons talent. In that case, the two weapons talent application seems to work well. In that case, there is no effective "off-hand" weapon but just the one that attacks second or parries. I treat parrying with a cestus to be the same as parrying with a dagger. It only stops one extra hit instead of two.

Your point about the weight of the cesti is interesting. In our youth, my brother and I would put on pairs of 14 oz. boxing gloves and go at each other. I can say that after three minutes of that, your arms feel like noodles. So, after 12 turns of swinging two cesti, I would impose 1 Fatigue point--2 points after 24 Turns, 3 points after 36 Turns. Most battles don't last that long but it does emulate my personal knowledge.

I have had a very small number of battles last past 12 turns and one that approached 20 turns. These were situations where both parties were aware of each other and were hostile at a greater distance apart.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

In our youth, my brother and I would put on pairs of 14 oz. boxing gloves and go at each other. I can say that after three minutes of that, your arms feel like noodles. So, after 12 turns of swinging two cesti, I would impose 1 Fatigue point--2 points after 24 Turns, 3 points after 36 Turns.

A rapier is 2 oz. heavier than one of those boxing gloves; would you impose the same fatigue on someone wielding one of those?