Talent/Spell of the Week: Acrobatics

[hcobb]

Say for some strange reason your character starts with ST 9, DX 12, IQ 11 and Weapons Expertise then looks around and sees that they are also qualified for Acrobatics that then turns many 3/DX rolls (74% chance of success) into 2/DX rolls (97% chance of success), which of the following saves does Acrobatics give this advantage on?

1. Dodging traps? (Does it stack with the Detect Traps bonus at ITL 38?)
2. Dodging falling slimes? (ITL 99)
3. Keeping your footing against a shield rush? (ITL 112)
4. The save to keep from getting pitted by a Trip spell? (ITL 21)
5. The roll to jump over a huge hole? (ITL 104)
6. Fighting while climbing a rope? (ITL 118)
7. Running in Darkness? (ITL 119)
8. Saving throws in water? (ITL 120)
9. Saving throws WRT molotails and gas bombs? (ITL 124)
10. Avoiding being overrun by a large creature? (ITL 104)
11. Standing up after being overrun by a large creature? (ITL 126)
12. Disengaging from HTH? (ITL 117)

etc?

[Shostak]

The established method is to present an overview of the talent and its requirements and benefits, point out some of its interesting and/or problematic aspects, and offer some personal perspective before inviting conversation. So, to that end, I'll offer this instead of answering your questions:

Acrobatics is one of the talents that has more than one prerequisite, necessitating a DX of at least 12 in addition to a minimum IQ of 10. As its name implies, it represents being trained in balance and agility, which mechanically translates to rolling one fewer dice on saving rolls versus falls, dodging "large" falling objects, etc. Acrobatics also appears to represent rope training; those with the talent can climb free-hanging ropes as well as someone with Climbing. Strangely, unlike the case with Mechanician and Remove Traps, there is no discount for someone with Climbing to learn Acrobatics or vice-versa.

Because of the DX prerequisite, Acrobatics is illustrative of what could be considered either a bug or a feature in TFT: some talents allowing near automatic success. Assuming that someone with Acrobatics is unarmored, they will have better than a 97% chance of success at what would for non-acrobats be a 3d roll (because acrobats would roll only two dice), and about a 75% chance for what would be 4d rolls for everyone else--and that's with the minimum allowed DX.

Acrobatics crops up frequently in games I either GM or run a character in, giving characters cinematic abilities. But, given the talent's broad utility due to the large number of situations requiring a saving roll versus falling and avoiding falling objects, I'd advocate for a conservative approach to allowing it to benefit. If the acrobat is rolling to avoid losing balance and falling, Acrobatics probably applies. Dodging out of the way of a collapsing stone archway? Sure. But does a slime count as a "large" falling object, or is dodging out of the area affected by poison gas something that benefits from Acrobatics? I'd say "No" to both. Dodging a poison dart trap? Sorry, but no. In one of the games I GM, I had a player who insisted that Acrobatics should give a bonus to his martial artist's advanced Unarmed Combat evade ability, which I had to disallow. I also generally rule that a character kneeling or lying down cannot make use of Acrobatics.

As with many talents, I find the IQ prerequisite for Acrobatics to be both arbitrary and contributing toward a less diverse sea of characters.

Conversation starters:

• Do you allow Acrobatics to apply liberally, or do you take the conservative approach, and why?
• Do you offer characters with Climbing or Dancer to learn Acrobatics for half-price?
• How often does Acrobatics appear in your games?
• What questions about Acrobatics appear in your games?
• Have you tweaked Acrobatics, or do you use it according to RAW?
• Recount a scene from one of your games that featured a memorable use of Acrobatics.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Shostak

The established method is to present an overview of the talent and its requirements and benefits, point out some of its interesting and/or problematic aspects, and offer some personal perspective before inviting conversation. So, to that end, I'll offer this instead of answering your questions:

Acrobatics is one of the talents that has more than one prerequisite, necessitating a DX of at least 12 in addition to a minimum IQ of 10. As its name implies, it represents being trained in balance and agility, which mechanically translates to rolling one fewer dice on saving rolls versus falls, dodging "large" falling objects, etc. Acrobatics also appears to represent rope training; those with the talent can climb free-hanging ropes as well as someone with Climbing. Strangely, unlike the case with Mechanician and Remove Traps, there is no discount for someone with Climbing to learn Acrobatics or vice-versa.

Because of the DX prerequisite, Acrobatics is illustrative of what could be considered either a bug or a feature in TFT: some talents allowing near automatic success. Assuming that someone with Acrobatics is unarmored, they will have better than a 97% chance of success at what would for non-acrobats be a 3d roll (because acrobats would roll only two dice), and about a 75% chance for what would be 4d rolls for everyone else--and that's with the minimum allowed DX.

Acrobatics crops up frequently in games I either GM or run a character in, giving characters cinematic abilities. But, given the talent's broad utility due to the large number of situations requiring a saving roll versus falling and avoiding falling objects, I'd advocate for a conservative approach to allowing it to benefit. If the acrobat is rolling to avoid losing balance and falling, Acrobatics probably applies. Dodging out of the way of a collapsing stone archway? Sure. But does a slime count as a "large" falling object, or is dodging out of the area affected by poison gas something that benefits from Acrobatics? I'd say "No" to both. Dodging a poison dart trap? Sorry, but no. In one of the games I GM, I had a player who insisted that Acrobatics should give a bonus to his martial artist's advanced Unarmed Combat evade ability, which I had to disallow. I also generally rule that a character kneeling or lying down cannot make use of Acrobatics.

As with many talents, I find the IQ prerequisite for Acrobatics to be both arbitrary and contributing toward a less diverse sea of characters.

Conversation starters:

• Do you allow Acrobatics to apply liberally, or do you take the conservative approach, and why?
• Do you offer characters with Climbing or Dancer to learn Acrobatics for half-price?
• How often does Acrobatics appear in your games?
• What questions about Acrobatics appear in your games?
• Have you tweaked Acrobatics, or do you use it according to RAW?
• Recount a scene from one of your games that featured a memorable use of Acrobatics.

Acrobatics has not come up much in any of my games, Classic or Legacy. So, I'm interested in yours and other GM's applications of it,

I have eyed Acrobatics on the short list for characters but never chose it. I think that the IQ requirement is too high. I've known some people that aren't all that intelligent seem to have some acrobatic abilities.

While I would start with the conservative application that you described, I may give a little more freedom in its use. If a PC has acrobatics and is kneeling, their action could be to roll into a kneeling position in the adjacent hex.I may not even require a DX roll if that is their action.They may be able to ready (not attack with) a weapon while executing that move.

I concur with your trap avoidance scenarios. Now, if the trap and what it would do if tripped were known (detected and understood) before being tripped, perhaps the acrobat could dodge via a saving roll.

I haven't thought abut ways for acrobatics to cost half but, Climbing Talent would definitely be one that could apply for that. Acrobat Talent specifically calls out special climbing skills. You may have inspired a house rule.

Acrobat Talent is kind of openly vague other than its reference to climbing and balance related saving rolls. So, it is ripe for allowing it to couple with and augment abilities provided from other talents that require good balance and dodging abilities. I think that restricting it specifically to RAW would cause reluctance to even obtaining the talent. Of course, if you allow it to be applied and augment everything, then why wouldn't a PC want the Acrobat talent.

The Acrobat talent is not a substitute for detecting traps, acute hearing, eyes-behind, or other situational awareness related abilities. However, if there is prior knowledge of traps, ambushes, etc. being present, then Acrobat Talent could help to avoid the negative consequences of such things. I see this as the criteria for placing a cap on how far Acrobat talent can be applied.

[hcobb]

I don't see how any sort of cost break wouldn't make Climbing free for an acrobat, and Climbing has advantages over Acrobatics:

1. Climbing without a rope gains no advantage from Acrobatics (Other than possibly a reduction from 4/DX to 3/DX save at ITL 118)
2. In that case stacking the two talents lets the climbing acrobat scale any height while always making their 1/DX rolls to do so.
3. The climber gets a huge advantage over the acrobat in placing spikes and ropes up a cliff and the climbing acrobat would then make this path prep automatic.
4. The acrobat has the advantage over the climber at recovery from a rolling fall down a slope of course.
5. Do dwarves halve the falling weight at ITL 119 to make their ST save against?

[JohnPaulB]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

I think that the IQ requirement is too high. I've known some people that aren't all that intelligent seem to have some acrobatic abilities.

I agree. I think IQ=9 would work. But it probably takes a lot of training and maintenance to do so leave the cost at 2 points.

I see Acrobatics as standard tumbling, rolling, trapeze actions/movements. But I also see it as somewhat Swashbuckling. Being able to grab chandelier chain and ride it up as the chandelier is falling down; tuck and roll under the wagon wheels; using your knife to cut and ride down the sails as you descend; swing from vine to vine, dancing on a horse, etc.

Sailors climbing ratlines seem to have a limited acrobatics skill of sorts.

I even might let a standing figure with Acrobat choose "dodge" option vs. missiles and thrown and give an additional +1 die penalty as long as he is aware of the missile being shot.

[timm meyers]

Acrobats are few and far between (except for the street performer/entertainer NPC trope)
The only PC I can recall that had the talent was a whip wielding woman that at one point was allowed to roll a 3/DX to scale a building during a street riot.
This was definitely a cinematic moment combining the use of the whip and acrobat talent.

Is Parkour a talent? ;)

[hcobb]

As started at start, Acrobats already roll 3/DX for climbing unprepared surfaces.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by JohnPaulB

I agree. I think IQ=9 would work. But it probably takes a lot of training and maintenance to do so leave the cost at 2 points.

I see Acrobatics as standard tumbling, rolling, trapeze actions/movements. But I also see it as somewhat Swashbuckling. Being able to grab chandelier chain and ride it up as the chandelier is falling down; tuck and roll under the wagon wheels; using your knife to cut and ride down the sails as you descend; swing from vine to vine, dancing on a horse, etc.

Sailors climbing ratlines seem to have a limited acrobatics skill of sorts.

I even might let a standing figure with Acrobat choose "dodge" option vs. missiles and thrown and give an additional +1 die penalty as long as he is aware of the missile being shot.

All of this makes sense to me. If one already has Climbing, perhaps, Acrobat could cost 1 IQ point since they already have much of the climbing ability given by Acrobatics. It's sort of like the relationship between Physicker and Vet.

[hcobb]

There is of course only one entry on the jobs table that list Acrobatics...

Entertainer, Human, age 20
ST 8, DX 13, IQ 11, MA 10
Talents include: Acrobatics, Bard, Dagger Expertise, Lasso, Thrown Weapons
Language: Common
Weapons: very fine dagger (1d+2), lasso (1d+2)
Attacks and Damage: Punch (1d-4)
etc.

[WFCoyote]

Dodging traps? (Does it stack with the Detect Traps bonus at ITL 38?) Stack No, use instead yes

Dodging falling slimes? (ITL 99) What is Surprise for? if you see them yes, if not know you have no cool moves just luck.

Keeping your footing against a shield rush? (ITL 112) Yes +1 DX

The save to keep from getting pitted by a Trip spell? (ITL 21) Yes, Acrobats are about balance to be tripped into a chasm is a balance issue (3d DX save), to merely hit the dirt relative to the safe ground has no chance, you hit the ground.
The roll to jump over a huge hole? (ITL 104) Yes

-3 MA Jump 1 Hex 04 ft /// Base Roll Auto
-4 MA Jump 2 Hex 08 ft /// Base Roll 3d vs DX
-4 MA Jump 3 Hex 12 ft /// Base Roll 5d vs DX
-5 MA Jump 4 Hex 16 ft /// Base Roll 7d vs DX
-5 MA Jump 5 Hex 20 ft /// Base Roll 9d vs DX
-7 MA Jump 6 Hex 24 ft /// Base Roll 11d vs DX

Fighting while climbing a rope? (ITL 118) Yes

Running in Darkness? (ITL 119) Balance comes from the middle ear, and comes from what we see so Run in Darkness if you want, but no autosaves.

Saving throws in water? (ITL 120) In swimming and diving, talents are where to seek help, water is not air Acrobatics does reduce the oxygen level not increase it so what you need acrobatics will not give.

Saving throws WRT molotails and gas bombs? (ITL 124) Acrobatic moves are about balance, Alertness would be more valid, as the time to get out of the way is before the splashing of oil or expansion of gas.

Avoiding being overrun by a large creature? (ITL 104) Plus to DX, +1 DX to get out of the way

Standing up after being overrun by a large creature? (ITL 126) Regardless of the reason you are knocked down, so long as nothing is holding you down or not stunned, +2 DX or 3d DX save, to Kip up from down to standing within one turn.

Disengaging from HTH? (ITL 117) Gee, sure follow all the rules, their movements can be a head over heals leap, so long as it follows all the disengage rules.