[Low-Tech/Basic] Pick: War Club or Pickaxe

[Blind Mapmaker]

I've been going through the Low-Tech weapon table again and run into the problem of finding stats for using an actual Pickaxe in combat. The Pick in the weapon table in Basic set and the one in Low-Tech share stats and those have been unchanged at least since Low-Tech for 3rd edition. But while I took the pick in Basic to be a pickaxe, the description in Low-Tech (p. 60) makes it clear this is supposed to be the weapon of war. From the weight and one-handedness I assume it's closest to the Horseman's Pick (Wikipedia-Link).

The weight and cost for the pick as a tool are (LT p. 30) are, however, the same while the TL is 1 instead of 3. I'm thinking this is probably an oversight. I'm not necessarily against pickaxes doing impaling damage, even if it's a little cinematic, but using it one-handed seems more than a little off. The tool stats in Low-Tech for 3rd edition (p. 78) were 7 lbs, $18 and TL 2.

Maybe keeping sw+1 imp, but reducing it to Parry -1U, ST 12‡, removing the bonus to target chinks in armour and treating it as poor quality for fighting might be better? It would still be quite a good weapon for that price and it might be better to stick it with a skill penalty of -2 in addition. Still that feels a bit much. It's not as unwieldy as a Garden Weasel or a Chainsaw (Horror pp. 50).

Any thoughts on that? It might be that it being made unready after attacking is already balanced enough. Or maybe impaling is a little overpowered, though it does feel right for a pickaxe to get stuck even if it isn't that sharp. Or just doubling the 3rd ed. tool cost already is enough.

PS: I checked my playtest messages from LT, but nothing jumped out.
PPS: I did find the thread Pickaxe tool damage value, but it seems to have come to no conclusion and predates LT for 4th edition.

[Dalillama]

I'm pretty sure there's comvat stats for a lumber axe in one of the LT books; I'd apply the same differences to a mining/digging pick vs. a military pick.

[Blind Mapmaker]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

I'm pretty sure there's comvat stats for a lumber axe in one of the LT books; I'd apply the same differences to a mining/digging pick vs. a military pick.

If there is, I can't find it - unless you mean the hatchet (probably not, but I'm not a native speaker of English). The tools section in LT is the closest match, but it doesn't give weapon stats for most. The adze is the closest I can get and this one says to treat it as a poorly balanced hatchet. I think the difference is larger than that, but maybe you're right and it's not that far off.

Originally Posted by Anthony

Hand tool versions of the pick, both one and two handed, have existed since prehistory and have probably been intermittently used as weapons for at least as long. If I had to guess why Basic calls the pick TL 3, it's because making a pick that will survive the rigors of combat is kinda hard.

You're not wrong about the general tool, but I'm thinking the pickaxe (as in this Wikipedia link) is a marked improvement over earlier versions already. Things like in this wikipedia link were more common and even less powerful ones too. Not to mention that nobody would make metal tools before the iron age.

Dalillama is also right about the weapons/arms race. If not for firearms these things would have kept a constant presence on battlefields. As it were they held on longer than you'd expect.

Game-mechanically I'm trying to strike a balance between realism and efficiency here, but I'm not there yet. Thanks for helping me get closer, though.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Blind Mapmaker

You're not wrong about the general tool, but I'm thinking the pickaxe (as in this Wikipedia link) is a marked improvement over earlier versions already.

We have evidence for the pickaxe being used by the Assyrians to break apart cities back in TL 2. They just don't seem to have much used them as weapons.

The actual weapon use picks have much shorter spikes than an agricultural pickaxe. At a guess, this is to make it strong enough to be useful against armor, and reduce the chance of getting stuck in things. Honestly, the GURPS pick is probably more accurate to a pickaxe than to an actual pick, which would have better performance against armor and lower wounding.

[Pursuivant]

I've spent entirely too much time using a pickaxe/mattock for gardening, breaking concrete, etc. Admittedly, non-combat uses, but enough that I have a good sense of the tool's balance, reach and heft compared to actual weapons or weapon-like objects I've used in sport melee combat.

For simplicity, treat a pickaxe as a Warhammer. Despite the name, it actually does sw/imp damage and appears to be a weaponized pickaxe with sharper points. (What most people think of as a warhammer is what GURPS describes as a Maul. The warhammer looks like a militarized version of large miner's pick.)

The pick described in GURPS Basic, LT, MA, etc. is a smaller, one-handed weapon which looks a bit like a weaponized mason's hammer or rock pick but with a slightly longer handle.

What most people think of as a pickaxe is actually a pickaxe/mattock or pickaxe/adzes (depending on the exact shape of the non-pick end). It's actually what the Assyrian on the far left is using in the picture that Anthony referenced. These sorts of tools can be treated as a Warhammer which can be turned 180 degrees to do sw/cut damage like a Greataxe.

Due to duller edges/points and design optimized for all-out attacks (strong) against unsuspecting bits of rock or earth, a garden variety pickaxe or pickaxe/mattock can be treated as Improvised (-1 to hit & damage) if you carry it into battle.

If you take off the head, a pickaxe, etc. handle turns into a handy unbalanced club. Treat it as a Round Mace with no penalties for being an improvised weapon.

If you're using an ordinary pickaxe to break rock, it should get Armor Divisor (2) vs. stone and similar materials.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

For simplicity, treat a pickaxe as a Warhammer. Despite the name, it actually does sw/imp damage and appears to be a weaponized pickaxe with sharper points.

Not sure it has sharper points; for example, this has a much faster taper than this, and therefore might well be duller or harder to sharpen. In practice, neither is likely to be terribly sharp, because both armor plates and rocky ground will dull a sharp point very very fast without a lot of benefit to the user.

[Blind Mapmaker]

First off, thanks to everybody for chiming in. This is really the forum at its best.

Originally Posted by Anthony

We have evidence for the pickaxe being used by the Assyrians to break apart cities back in TL 2. They just don't seem to have much used them as weapons.

The actual weapon use picks have much shorter spikes than an agricultural pickaxe. At a guess, this is to make it strong enough to be useful against armor, and reduce the chance of getting stuck in things. [/snip]

Both seem reasonable. The old LT lists it as TL 2 and I know the Romans used them. Iron tools to slow down tool degradation seem like a signature TL 2 technology. And spike length has its limits when going after humans instead of stone.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

I've spent entirely too much time using a pickaxe/mattock for gardening, breaking concrete, etc. Admittedly, non-combat uses, but enough that I have a good sense of the tool's balance, reach and heft compared to actual weapons or weapon-like objects I've used in sport melee combat.

[/snip]

What most people think of as a pickaxe is actually a pickaxe/mattock or pickaxe/adzes (depending on the exact shape of the non-pick end). It's actually what the Assyrian on the far left is using in the picture that Anthony referenced. These sorts of tools can be treated as a Warhammer which can be turned 180 degrees to do sw/cut damage like a Greataxe.

Due to duller edges/points and design optimized for all-out attacks (strong) against unsuspecting bits of rock or earth, a garden variety pickaxe or pickaxe/mattock can be treated as Improvised (-1 to hit & damage) if you carry it into battle.

[/snip]

Thank you very much, it's always good to have some-body with first-hand knowledge of the subject. I'm leaning towards using this with the addition of cheap quality for breakage purposes and adjusting the price accordingly.

Originally Posted by mburr0003

I think there might be a mattock in one of the Horrors... but I could be wrong.

There's a mattock attached to a zombie stat block on p. 155 that has 1d+2 damage, which would mean it's based on the pick. Not my favourite reference material though.

Originally Posted by tbone

Action 5 p29 covers pickaxes. Kind of.

A pickaxe falls under Two-Handed Axe/Mace, along with felling axe, broad axe, and splitting maul. Those weapons get Weapon Table entries with TH penalties noted (none for felling axe, -3 for broad axe and splitting maul). A pickaxe is described as "clumsy" but gets no Table entry, and no TH penalty is noted.

Gosh, I always forget Action exists. Why did my search engine not find it? I guess that what happens when you use the wrong exclusion terms on your search. To hit is given as -3 in the text, which does seem a little excessive for the 8 lbs. version and Pursuivant's experience speaks against it too. Maybe I go for -2 purely for game-mechanical reasons.

Originally Posted by tbone

Suggested damage [/snip] (Those would be older damage stats from BS, not the newer sw+4 stats from Low-Tech, etc.) [/snip]

Treat a pickaxe as a combo great axe/warhammer. Stats (using more modern damage stats):

8 lb.: sw+4 cut / sw+4 imp, ST 12‡

To remove the "clumsy" penalty, pay for a pickaxe that's a proper weapon/tool combo. I don't think there's a single rule somewhere covering this. As possible models to follow, the combo axe/shovel ("combat shovel") and hand weapons that double as climbing tools (Climber's modifier) come to mind. But those are for DF/DFRPG, and aren't necessarily realistic...
[/snip]

I'll work something up with LTC2. Currently I don't have a lot of interest in the bigger versions or hand-waving stuff. I play a lot of fantasy, but with a realistic veneer. It's not for any character (yet!) - I really only went through the tables to have an easy way to input stuff in my excel character sheets.

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Yes, the authors of GURPS Basic Set were probably thinking of the steel-headed warhammers with back spikes which appear in western Europe after 1400 when they created their entry for a Pick (TL 3). [/snip]

Seems like they did and I think it works fine as a horseman's one-handed weapon.

Originally Posted by Polydamas

I would give the kind of pickaxe that you use to break up earth or clay a penalty to hit (its too big and heavy, weapons for fighting have to me nimble because trees don't dodge or parry), require two hands, and give it stats similar to the Axe in GURPS Low-Tech but imp instead of cut if you strike with the spike. Maybe +1 damage for being two-handed.

I thought so at first too, but I think the others and Action 5 convinced me otherwise. Though maybe I shouldn't rely too much on that book - it is quite cinematic. I need to ruminate on this a little and make a couple of different versions.

Thanks again everybody. This has been a most useful exercise!

[tbone]

Originally Posted by Blind Mapmaker

To hit is given as -3 in the text...

Ah, you're right, it does say "-3". One of those things I missed while looking right at it.

I'm drawn toward a simple -1 instead, simply as it's the penalty used here and there for camp hatchets and hammers, machetes, crowbars, and other tools that take a penalty when used as weapons. But Action 5 does like to place larger penalties on a lot of things.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Blind Mapmaker

Thank you very much, it's always good to have some-body with first-hand knowledge of the subject. I'm leaning towards using this with the addition of cheap quality for breakage purposes and adjusting the price accordingly.

I wouldn't call any tool designed for serious, long-term labor Cheap-Quality. A well-made agricultural or mining tool is designed to survive years of constant use and a certain amount of abuse.

Of course, you get what you pay for. I'd call just about any unpowered garden or yard implement you get at a big box hardware store "Cheap-Quality" regardless of price. Those sorts of tools invariably break, bend or otherwise fail under stress.

Originally Posted by Blind Mapmaker

There's a mattock attached to a zombie stat block on p. 155 that has 1d+2 damage, which would mean it's based on the pick. Not my favourite reference material though.

It's in the ballpark, however. A typical two-handed pickaxe or pick/adze/mattock/whatever weighs about 5-8 lbs. and has a haft about 1 yard long, so anything axe-like or mace-like in the same range will be good enough.

I could easily see a -3 to hit for an 8 lb. pickaxe/whatever if you're not familiar with it or are trying to use it at Reach 2. Typically, you'd cancel that penalty with AoA (Determined) or a Telegraphic Attack with a full "John Henry" style windup.

A -2 penalty seems a bit more reasonable if you only attack at Range 1 and primarily use a Defensive Grip. As a weapon, a pickaxe is incredibly, unforgivingly tip-heavy and just doesn't move with the same agility as a purpose-built weapon with similar balance. That makes it great for delivering maximum force blows to stationary targets but a real liability if you need to quickly switch from attack to defense or are trying to get through a brief gap in your opponent's defenses.

[Anthony]

Hand tool versions of the pick, both one and two handed, have existed since prehistory and have probably been intermittently used as weapons for at least as long. If I had to guess why Basic calls the pick TL 3, it's because making a pick that will survive the rigors of combat is kinda hard.