XP Cost for Talents/Spells

[Bill_in_IN]

Having been playing under the Legacy TFT system for about 1.5 years now, I propose a couple of ideas on the XP cost for talent/spell points. This way of spending XP is new in Legacy as compared to Classic TFT and, I do like it. However, I think that the cost is to high especially when you take into account that we aren't 20 years old and sitting in a game several times per week.

Here's an idea that may have already been discussed on this forum but I would toss it out anyway. Hopefully, it would REALLY promote character development through talents/spell learning. What do you all think?

Base the XP cost for talents on the IQ level of the talent. IQ 10 or below cost 200 XP per IQ point. IQ 11 and 12 talents cost 300 XP per point. IQ 13 and above cost 500 XP per point. This isn't too complicated but what I propose below is far more simple.

You could simply house rule all talent cost at 200 or 250 XP and be done with it. I think 200-250 XP per talent point is reasonable and it is close to mana point cost for a wizard. I stole a house rule from another GM where the first two talent points spent only cost 250 XP. That could just become the rule across the board and I would be fine with it. I'm not stingy with XP but I don't throw it out like candy either.

The end result will be PCs having to look at learning talents/spells earlier in their development as opposed to boosting attributes to 36 or 37 points before even attempting to learn more talents/spells. This aspect of character development will open up sooner and add more fun while not having to balance out play between new and higher attribute PCs.

[hcobb]

The big problem with the current system is that IQ is twice as valuable at creation vs advancement. Fix this by either giving each PC the same memory points at start (12 is plenty) or by granting a memory point worth of talents or spells each time IQ advances.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

You could simply house rule all talent cost at 200 or 250 XP and be done with it. I think 200-250 XP per talent point is reasonable and it is close to mana point cost for a wizard.

That seems easiest to me, Bill.

[hcobb]

Legacy talents are already super cheap for wizards WRT Classic. I don't see the case for making them even less expensive.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Legacy talents are already super cheap for wizards WRT Classic. I don't see the case for making them even less expensive.

Double cost is not super cheap. You're being sarcastic, right?

[hcobb]

Talents are really cheap for advanced characters. In Classic wizards dreaded learning talents while in Legacy the talents are much more cost effective and you don't have to raise IQ over 20 to get them. The adventure writers mostly haven't adapted to this when writing up their big bad wizard foes.

The issue I see is the mid-gap of characters forced to flip xp into dx for lack of better options until they hit 37 attributes.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Talents are really cheap for advanced characters. In Classic wizards dreaded learning talents while in Legacy the talents are much more cost effective and you don't have to raise IQ over 20 to get them. The adventure writers mostly haven't adapted to this when writing up their big bad wizard foes.

The issue I see is the mid-gap of characters forced to flip xp into dx for lack of better options until they hit 37 attributes.

Now, I'm following what you're saying. Some context was needed. Spells are super cheap for advanced characters.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

I do like this aspect of Legacy TFT. I just think that it's too expensive in RAW.

I like it too. IMO, the ability to earn talents independent of IQ increases is one of the few truly innovative changes that the LE rules made.

My own fix, however, depends on a more drastic revision. I didn't like how the game forced characters into two distinct phases of progression... build your stats until they get too expensive then switch to talents. I wanted the choice between stats and talents to stay (mostly) even at every stage of play. It's OK if both choices get more expensive as PCs advance - that's to be expected - the goal is simply to keep one option from significantly outpacing the other.

The other factor to consider, of course, is the rate at which XP is earned.

[Axly Suregrip]

I do two things to adjust for the current XP system.

1) if a player increases IQ, then they get 1 "talent point". Or as Henry puts it, they get 500 XP for only talents/spells. This is significant increase and it fixes the problem of starting characters with high IQs getting unfair additional XP built in.

2) I am generous with the XP given. Yes you can lower the costs, or you can give more XP. Most game nights I give 75 XP, some times 100 XP. Plus, I look for giving bonus XP for one or two exception plays, actions, ideas, or even a lucky roll that made a big difference. The bonus is usually 50 or 75 more but can be from 25 to 100.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

I didn't like how the game forced characters into two distinct phases of progression... build your stats until they get too expensive then switch to talents. I wanted the choice between stats and talents to stay (mostly) even at every stage of play. It's OK if both choices get more expensive as PCs advance - that's to be expected - the goal is simply to keep one option from significantly outpacing the other.

The other factor to consider, of course, is the rate at which XP is earned.

Those are also my pet peeves with the Legacy way of doing these things. I really want more Talents to be more accessible to more characters as well, but not by this gamey approach of turning Talents into a tax shelter for XP.

My preferred way is to continue raising Talent Points (TP) with increases in IQ, leaving XP for thier original purpose of increasing attributes only.

Over the years I've concocted many formulas for allocating TP without any of those complications, with my favorite (albeit un-play-tested) being this latest one:

Talent Points = (IQ - 3) x 2

A slightly different formula applies to non-human species, but for humans an IQ 8 figure has 10 TP, at IQ 9 it's 12 TP, at IQ 10 it has 14 TP, etc. Yes, at IQ 20 a figure would have 34 TP (but more on how this would be mitigated is below). Thus every time IQ is raised 1 point, TP increases 2 points. At any stage in a figure's life, Talent Points are determined by IQ. As attributes go up, the next IQ increase costs progressively more XP, but unlike Classic TFT figures get twice as many TP for these IQ increases.

To slow what would otherwise become a runaway train, I'll raise the cost and IQ level for most of the more advanced talents. Some 3 point talents will now cost 4 (or more), and a few 2 point talents will now cost 3. We already have a few advanced talents a little-too-easily in reach of starting characters, so spreading out the range of talent costs will permit more adjustments in that regard.

And lastly, wizards. As I frequently mention, I've always used a Wizardry talent with a cost of 5. That eats up half or more of these TP for wizards until their IQs start exceeding 10 (and I've never charged wizards double cost for any other talents). We had an Advanced Wizardry talent as well in my 80's group. I've expanded that now to FIVE levels of the Wizardry talent, the first costing 5 TP and the remaining steps each costing 3 TP; yes, each one makes a wizard a better wizard. But this forces any wizard who keeps progressing as a wizard to keep at least 50% of their Talent Points tied up in Wizardry at each IQ level, preserving the original game balance. Yes, a young wizard might decide to depart the path of magical education and pursue expertise with the sword instead, but then they'll never be as powerful a wizard as the one who stuck to magic.