RPM question

[nudj]

I've been thinking of using RPM in a fantasy game. Looking at GURPS Thaumotology RPM, i see that Fireball is a greater create energy effect and costs 6 points per +1d. I also see that lesser destroy body causes damage at 2 points per +1d if the tech in the setting allows that level of damage from a hand held or ranged weapon.

That's a big difference in cost. Can I apply the setting rule to a fireball? Even in a TL 3 game, 12 fatigue for a 2d fireball seems ridiculous.

Thanks

nudj

[Refplace]

Certainly!
What is a Greater or Lesser effect is very much a GM decision, largely based on the setting and how the GM wants magic to work.

In a high fantasy setting I might run RPM with almost nothing requiring a Greater Effect.
Or I might break it down by specialty or something. Say use RPM for both clerical and wizard magic. Then give Clerics healing as lesser but wizards as Greater - or just ban them from it.

[sir_pudding]

Energy isn't FP, and 12 isn't a lot to gather when preparing spells as conditionals or charms.

[nudj]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Energy isn't FP, and 12 isn't a lot to gather when preparing spells as conditionals or charms.

So is that a default assumption in RPM? That you are not doing things spontaneously in battle?

[naloth]

Originally Posted by nudj

So is that a default assumption in RPM? That you are not doing things spontaneously in battle?

My very limited experience with RPM is that casters have good utility and excellent buffing abilities but aren't that great as warriors. Charms give you a limited set of tricks, but you want to save those for when you really need it.

If that suits your tastes, it works well for that. If you want spontaneous magic I'd suggest using using Sorcery instead.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by nudj

I misspoke when is said fatigue. If you are in a battle, 12 energy is hard to gather quickly. When you say “the greater can exceed the limits of the lesser”, what do you mean in the fireball context? Do you mean the GM decides, or do you mean some specific thing that is exceeded with fireball and Greater create energy, that is not exceeded with lesser destroy body.

Please forgive my lack of understanding of something that is probably obvious

I think he pretty much means what I said. The GM choose what qualifies as Lesser or Greater Effects. The more things that are Lesser Effect the more effective a caster is.

Originally Posted by nudj

So is that a default assumption in RPM? That you are not doing things spontaneously in battle?

Even with Ritual Adept it can be a problem coming up with enough energy fast enough. So you want to have charms premade so you can quickly get your spells off. You are limited in how many you can have but don't need them for most noncombat effects. Charms are essential to effective magical combat.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by nudj

So is that a default assumption in RPM? That you are not doing things spontaneously in battle?

Yes, this is indeed a default assumption for RPM. RPM is supposed to be ritualistic, not a Harry Potter type of magic that has a magic effect with just a short word and a simple gesture. That doesnt mean that it's impossible to use in battle, just that it is really hard to do the more "flashy" effects in the heat of battle, but minor ones are still a possibility.

RPM however has conditional magics and Charms exactly for that purpose. Just make a "Wand of Fireball" with a few charges, just in case you need it.

RPM is a fascinating system, in one hand it is perhaps the most open ended I've ever seen, truly allowing you to really feel what a "Mage" means, with basically every possibility imaginable open to the caster.

In the other hand, you have to think carefully what it is that you want and what you might need when your need is the greatest.

Suppose the level of skill you have allows for 10 conditionals or charms. What do you do with those? Do you set 3 slots for fireballs, 1 for a "magic shield" and 6 healings? Well, that seems a good pick - 3 sources of ways to put the hurt on foes, 1 way to protect yourself or someone, and 6 "doses" of medicine, just in case.

But what if you enter in a dungeon filled with incorporeal undead? In that case, it would've been better to have stocked a few "Exorcism" spells, but you had no way to know it beforehand.

Therefore, RPM can do anything - like a true mage from fantasy stories do - but cant exactly always be prepared and capable of solving every single problem with just a few Abracadrabas.

And this is a kind of magic that requires the players to think tactifully.

[Christopher R. Rice]

If you take Adept it changes from ritualistic to on the spot.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by nudj

So is that a default assumption in RPM? That you are not doing things spontaneously in battle?

Yes. (Though it's possible to build adepts that might sling magic in battle.)

RPM was originally designed for the Monster Hunters line, urban fantasy of the sort which normally presumes a wainscot / secret magic setting, and often in the modern day where there's not evidently a lot of magic around (from my mundane point of view). Magic is ritualistic, a relatively drawn-out process of pouring through the grimoire and going through the motions to "gather energy". MH also assumes preparation is important to the success of the hunters -- researching to figure out what they're up against, learning its weaknesses, scouting its habits, lair, and minions, and for the mages, creating charms for spells they're likely to need, not just doing everything off the cuff, charging into the next dungeon room because the PCs are supposed to win, right? Well, not the unprepared PCs, at least not in MH.

The Greater / Lesser Effect distinction is there also to help give the mechanics that feel of a secret magic setting. Think Mage: the Ascension rather than D&D. Magic with big flashy effects that are really improbable in the setting are Greater, with the meta goal of discouraging their use in favor of magic that's more subtle, easier for the mundanes to overlook or confuse as some rational effect.

If that's not the feel of the setting you want for a game, but you do want mages slinging fireballs and calling lightning, teleporting about the battlefield, then you might make Ritual Adept cheaper or otherwise speed up energy gathering, and you might rarely or never have Greater Effects in that setting. You might also need to ponder what limits mages do have in the setting, so other archetypes aren't at best redundant.

[nudj]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Yes. (Though it's possible to build adepts that might sling magic in battle.)

RPM was originally designed for the Monster Hunters line, urban fantasy of the sort which normally presumes a wainscot / secret magic setting, and often in the modern day where there's not evidently a lot of magic around (from my mundane point of view). Magic is ritualistic, a relatively drawn-out process of pouring through the grimoire and going through the motions to "gather energy". MH also assumes preparation is important to the success of the hunters -- researching to figure out what they're up against, learning its weaknesses, scouting its habits, lair, and minions, and for the mages, creating charms for spells they're likely to need, not just doing everything off the cuff, charging into the next dungeon room because the PCs are supposed to win, right? Well, not the unprepared PCs, at least not in MH.

The Greater / Lesser Effect distinction is there also to help give the mechanics that feel of a secret magic setting. Think Mage: the Ascension rather than D&D. Magic with big flashy effects that are really improbable in the setting are Greater, with the meta goal of discouraging their use in favor of magic that's more subtle, easier for the mundanes to overlook or confuse as some rational effect.

If that's not the feel of the setting you want for a game, but you do want mages slinging fireballs and calling lightning, teleporting about the battlefield, then you might make Ritual Adept cheaper or otherwise speed up energy gathering, and you might rarely or never have Greater Effects in that setting. You might also need to ponder what limits mages do have in the setting, so other archetypes aren't at best redundant.

I was looking for something that gave flexible rules for creating "any" magic spell someone could come up with (unlike GURPS Magic) but wasn't as complex and prescriptive as powers and stunts. It sounds like if I want more spontaneity, I need to really think about what is a greater effect in my game. I'm not sure loading up on charms or conditional spells is what I want (sounds like "fire and forget"). Ritual Adept is clear, but maybe high levels of Magery/Thaumatology/Path skills would be enough (it's a high point game with goons and bosses).

Thanks for all the advice guys!