Targeting the Eyes: rules questions

[sjmdw45]

Exploits says "Eye (-9): Impaling and all piercing attacks can target the eye. Injury over HP/10 blinds the eye. Otherwise, treat as a skull hit without the extra DR 2!"

1.) Unlike GURPS, DFRPG doesn't seem to have a rule in Adventurers or in Monsters that says DR doesn't apply to eyes. Is this an oversight? (The existence of Nictitating Membrane implies that it probably is, but maybe the intention is for e.g. large dragons to have DR 18 on their eyes and DR 9 elsewhere.)

2.) The Sunbolt spell says, "Sunbolt does burning damage, may ignite flammable targets, and counts as sunlight against creatures susceptible to such. Anyone struck in the face must roll vs. HT, even if no damage penetrates armor; those hit in the eyes must roll at a penalty equal to any injury caused. Failure means being blinded, which counts as a crippling injury; see Duration of Crippling (Exploits, p. 61)."

Sunbolt is burning damage, not impaling or piercing, so how can it target the eyes? Is this just a special exception that lets Sunbolt act like piercing damage in this case? Does it get the x4 wounding modifier and enhanced knockdown? Does that make the HT save against blinding redundant, or is it more like 'your right eye is now gone and your left eye might be blinded'?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

Exploits says "Eye (-9): Impaling and all piercing attacks can target the eye. Injury over HP/10 blinds the eye. Otherwise, treat as a skull hit without the extra DR 2!"

1.) Unlike GURPS, DFRPG doesn't seem to have a rule in Adventurers or in Monsters that says DR doesn't apply to eyes.

It's in the Hit Location Table, Exploits, p. 99.

Check the footnotes, specifically [2] and [3]

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

It's in the Hit Location Table, Exploits, p. 99.

Check the footnotes, specifically [2] and [3]

My copy of Exploits says nothing on page 99 about bypassing DR on an eye hit. It just repeats the text from page 54. Am I missing an errata?

Footnote 2: "Only impaling and piercing attacks can target the eye--and only from the front and sides. Injury over HP/10 blinds the eye. Otherwise, treat as skull (see note [3]) without the extra DR!"

Not "without DR", just without the extra +2 to DR.

Footnote 3: "Skull gets an extra DR 2. Wounding modifier for all but fatigue or toxic damage increases to x4. Knockdown rolls for major wounds are at -10. Critical hits use the Critical Head Blow table (p. 100)."

Nor is this covered on Monsters page 15, which just says that DR is total DR from all sources and is not from armor unless noted. In GURPS the DR advantage says it doesn't cover eyes (unless enhanced with force field). DFRPG doesn't say this anywhere. DFRPG does say that Tough Skin doesn't protect the eyes (or against poison, shock, etc.), but many or most monsters with DR do not have it via Tough Skin or armor.

Stabbing a DR 10 Mindwarper in the eye for 9 points of damage, or a DR 17 reanimated Golem Armor Swordsman after the flesh golem is dead and it's just an "armor golem", will do either zero injury (if DR is not ignored) or likely kill the monster in one hit (if DR is ignored). DFRPG implies the former, while GURPS Basic and Kromm's posts about ways to defeat Golem Armor Swordsmen imply the latter. This makes the lack of armor-bypassing rules on Exploits pg 54 and 99 look like an oversight.

How do others do it? Also how do you rule on Sunbolt to the eyes even though it's not piercing or impaling damage?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

Not "without DR", just without the extra +2 to DR.

A fair point. The "eye DR" Trait in Monsters is Nictitating Membrane...which just says "DR for the eye is..." and doesn't tell what happens after you punch through that and blind the eye.

Interesting.

[DouglasCole]

I went right to Sean on this one:

On 20 Oct 2022 at 10:29, Douglas Cole wrote:

> If a monster has DR 6 without nictitating membrane, does this mean:

> Eyes have DR 0, Skull has DR 8
> Eyes have DR 6, Skull has DR 8

The latter. Eyes aren't supposed to have DR except from Nictitating
Membrane and force field-like effects.

> I know this is pedantic, but I was wondering if your intent was that
> monster eyes are tougher than adventurer eyes.

No! While that might be better for game balance in *some* campaigns, it
would nerf a lot of professions in *other* campaigns.

SP.

So you're reading it right: The monster base DR is all attacks BUT the eyes, and the "extra skull DR" doesn't apply, but the base monster DR DOES.

So to shoot a creature with DR 6, Nictitating Membrane 3 the way scouts like to, you have to first punch through DR 3 for the membrane, and then injury of HP/10 or more blinds the eye. You must then punch through the monster base DR 6 before you get to the creamy monster center for the x4.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Sean Punch via Doug Cole

On 20 Oct 2022 at 10:29, Douglas Cole wrote:

> If a monster has DR 6 without nictitating membrane, does this mean:

> Eyes have DR 0, Skull has DR 8
> Eyes have DR 6, Skull has DR 8

The latter. Eyes aren't supposed to have DR except from Nictitating
Membrane and force field-like effects.

> I know this is pedantic, but I was wondering if your intent was that
> monster eyes are tougher than adventurer eyes.

No! While that might be better for game balance in *some* campaigns, it
would nerf a lot of professions in *other* campaigns.

SP.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I went right to Sean on this one:

So you're reading it right: The monster base DR is all attacks BUT the eyes, and the "extra skull DR" doesn't apply, but the base monster DR DOES.

Thanks for checking. Note however that I read Kromm's answer the opposite of how you do: when Kromm says "the latter" he clearly means "the former" in this case because he's explicit that "Eyes aren't supposed to have DR except from Nictitating Membrane and force field-like effects," because giving eyes DR "would nerf a lot of professions in *other* campaigns."

Therefore it's not intended that "but the base monster DR DOES".

Hopefully DFRPG's next printing will add this to the Hit Location table. "Eye (-9): Impaling and all piercing attacks can target the eye. Injury over HP/10 blinds the eye. Otherwise, ignore all DR except force field DR and Nictitating Membrane DR, and treat as a skull hit without the extra DR 2!"

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

So to shoot a creature with DR 6, Nictitating Membrane 3 the way scouts like to, you have to first punch through DR 3 for the membrane, and then injury of HP/10 or more blinds the eye. You must then punch through the monster base DR 6 before you get to the creamy monster center for the x4.

Hmmm. That's an interesting interpretation which hadn't occurred to me, but again, I read Kromm as saying the opposite: the creamy monster center has only DR 3 total.