when is there HP damage for avoiding urination (Quick and Dirty Enchantment)

[Plane]

M17 rules allows you to enchant 100 energy per hour, so for example if you wanted (M27) to make the better "Ring of Body of Wind" for 3500 energy, you would need to be enchanting for 35 continuous hours.

As far as I know, Quick and Dirty Enchantment requires a lot more focus than Slow and Sure. You can for example cast other spells while doing Slow and Sure, there's just a -3 penalty for maintaining your concentration on that day's enchantment.

It's probably constant Concentrate maneuvers, meaning if you stop making concentrate maneuvers, you would have to start over the QADE process?

If that interpretation is correct it begs the question of what you can actually do, since it wouldn't cover anything you'd normally require an Attack or Ready to accomplish.

I'm pretty sure to do something like remove your pants (which many people do to urinate in a toilet) would require something akin to attack (Grapple your Armor, Break Free that armor's Clasp CP to undo the belt, etc) or just folded into a Ready - in either case unless you have Compartmentalized Mind it seems like something you wouldn't be able to manage while still keeping up the requisite Concentrates on your spell.

While a GM might allow something like "wet yourself as a free action" for those who didn't want to do this (ie 'hold it in' for 35 hours) do we know how long someone could do this before they started to take HP damage?

From reading it seems that people tend to be able to hold 10 hours' worth of urine before the bladder begins to stretch uncomfortably, so I'm wondering if we might use similar rules to sleep loss (which you'd also be using for 35-hour enchantment unelss you had Sleepless advantage) except instead of B427's loss of 1 FP per 6 hours "staying up late" it could be losing 1 HP per 6 hours "missing an evacuation" ?

Plus the "will roll to avoid falling asleep" could be replaced with a "will roll to avoid incontinence" where failure means you wet yourself to avoid taking further HP damage.

[Anthony]

Dealing with spending long hours on a job without the ability to take a bathroom break is a problem with known solutions. However, RAW you'll start taking penalties after 8 hours, see the rules for Long Tasks on B346 (and unlike sleep, there are no advantages that offset those penalties).

[Agemegos]

I had a tangentially relevant conversation once with an intensivist, an anaesthetist, and a surgeon (no urologist), discussing the famous death of the Danish astronomer Tycho Brahe. The consensus of the doctors was that Brahe must have had [some condition that they named but that I have forgotten], because normally the sphincter fails before the bladder does. You cannot injure yourself just by refusing to pee.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Anthony

RAW you'll start taking penalties after 8 hours, see the rules for Long Tasks on B346 (and unlike sleep, there are no advantages that offset those penalties).

I don't know if the Long Tasks rules necessarily assumes you're not taking bathroom breaks, just that you're extending beyond the usual 8-hour work period which tends to include them.

Originally Posted by Agemegos

I had a tangentially relevant conversation once with an intensivist, an anaesthetist, and a surgeon (no urologist), discussing yhe famous death of the Danish astronomer Tycho Brahe. The consensus of the doctors was that Brahe must have had [some condition that they named but that I have forgotten], because normally the sphincter fails before the bladder does. You cannot injure yourself just by refusing to pee.

Sphincter failing first seems like it would be an issue if you had fecal matter in there, but wouldn't necessarily apply if someone were only consuming liquids (ie juice fast, etc). Obviously two explanding interior balloons are going to compete with each other for space, but there's going to be a space maximum regardless of how it is reached, and as you approach that maximum both ballons are going to take more willpower to avoid emptying.

Originally Posted by Willy

A lot of professional sportsmen and woman taking part in long term competitions like the tour de france just urinate in their pants while still cycling full power further, as do runners, swimmers , ... so there will be no problem with shame and such for a hardened enchanter.

Could definitely be a cultural thing (hey maybe there's a reason it's called Quick and DIRTY enchanting?) although if someone had "Phobia - wetting oneself" it might pressure them to either hold it in or abandon the ritual casting as they have competing motivations of "avoid phobia" vs "finish the ceremony" vs "not take HP damage"

Originally Posted by Willy

But you face a bigger problem, 35 h working on without drinking and eating will have consequences on you concentration. You will do it by yourself manually or face the -1 for each person who isn´t casting in sight. Not to mention you need 3500 FP - your own energy you can spend. The necessary powerstone is about 3490 carat big, at least dozens of times bigger than anything in the whole GURPS history, in Magig Items ? is somewhere a stone bigger than 100 carat. It is worth several kingdoms. The whole case is most likely a thought experiment.

M156's Black Magic rules allows you to reduce costs by triple your Occultism Thaumatology, so I guess that could get us part of the way there. That's more of an easy way to get over the hump of creating your first powerstones though.

We could just assume that mages doing this, if they don't have 3500 FP, might have an ER of 3500.

You might not have a full-time ER of 3500, maybe it's smaller but you can temporarily get access to higher ER deposits via Extra Effort.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Plane

I don't know if the Long Tasks rules necessarily assumes you're not taking bathroom breaks, just that you're extending beyond the usual 8-hour work period which tends to include them.

They don't, but a 3500 energy Q&D is a 35 hour long task, and thus you get to make a HT roll at -27 or suffer a skill penalty and fatigue cost equal to your margin of failure. The long task rules are severe enough that you probably aren't doing Q&D beyond 800, since failing the HT roll will probably reduce modified skill below 15, resulting in automatic failure.

[woefulhc]

GURPS is NOT intended to be a reality simulator. (How To Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations, p 3).

While I guess you could posit a game/campaign where a single caster could amass 3500 energy for a single casting quick and dirty enchantment, my read of what is presented in Magic is that is FAR beyond the scope of what they were targeting for Q&D. By the time a mage has that much energy available I expect they would have a way to address the concentration, bladder, bowel, food and drink needs to be able to do the Q&D method.

Personally, as a GM I'd just say, "No."

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by woefulhc

GURPS is NOT intended to be a reality simulator. (How To Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations, p 3).

While I guess you could posit a game/campaign where a single caster could amass 3500 energy for a single casting quick and dirty enchantment, my read of what is presented in Magic is that is FAR beyond the scope of what they were targeting for Q&D. By the time a mage has that much energy available I expect they would have a way to address the concentration, bladder, bowel, food and drink needs to be able to do the Q&D method.

Personally, as a GM I'd just say, "No."

Yes, by the time the Mage has 3.500 ER he has adressed all those issues indeed.

He has turned himself into a Lich. Problem solved. Now he can do whatever he wants for as long as he wants without penalties, and is reviled and hated and feared by everybody.

But hey, no more bladder problems.

Or he could also turn himself into a full ciborg.

[Varyon]

Just use an external catheter, like this charming fellow. Alright, so I'm pretty certain Ten Earth Shattering Blows is post-apocalyptic, but I'm also fairly certain you could manage something similar at a low TL (honestly, I suspect his version is just made with metal and leather). Or just do it like the witches and wizards in Harry Potter used to - just let yourself go whenever and wherever, and clean it up with magic later.

[RGTraynor]

This thread is certain proof of the dangers of having too much time on one's hands.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Plane

We could just assume that mages doing this, if they don't have 3500 FP, might have an ER of 3500.

You might not have a full-time ER of 3500, maybe it's smaller but you can temporarily get access to higher ER deposits via Extra Effort.

Holy Guacamole, 3500 ER? That's 10.500 character points! Even if you placed limitations up to 80%, that's still 2.100 character points just for ER!