Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise

[Doktor Teufel]

There is only one page's worth of information in the Basic Set (page B393) covering Surprise Attacks, and I've read through that page many times at this point. There are still a few details that perplex me.

First of all, Total Surprise is very difficult to achieve. To catch adventurers and adventurer-type NPCs completely by surprise, you either have to do something completely zany, unexpected and off-the-wall (werewolves bursting into the public library), or get them when they're sleeping or otherwise incredibly vulnerable. And even then, characters with Combat Reflexes (that's most hero-type characters) are never really caught completely off guard. If the attackers do manage to achieve Total Surprise, then there's no need to roll initiative; the attackers get one or more rounds free to do as they wish.

Partial Surprise is odd. If the PCs (or adventurer-grade NPCs) are wary and alert, there is simply no way to catch them totally by surprise. So let's say a bunch of enemy NPCs have set up an ambush for the PCs. The PCs don't notice them at all, but because they're wary, when the NPCs pop out of their hiding places to start shooting, both sides roll initiative.

That means that if attackers have an ambush set up and a wary group walks into the trap, the attackers could somehow lose initiative and the ones the ambushers intended to attack would end up getting one or more free turns instead!

That makes no sense to me. I can deal with the defenders getting to act normally, but getting to act BEFORE the ambushers? Wow.

Is there something I'm missing?

[cccwebs]

There's a little part that you may be overlooking. Under Partial Suprise, is says "The GM should require each side to roll for initiative." That leads me to feel there is some working room in the suprise rules to cover your ambush situation, though the rules are a bit "fuzzy" on it. I'd say that in your ambush situation, unless the players had some sort of warning about the impending attack, they wouldn't roll for initiative. Combat would occur as normal, except that those without Combat Reflexes would suffer from the rules for Total Suprise. This is only my take on it, or how I'd work with a "fuzzy" rules situation. Though I can understand situations where the ambushers might be on the losing side if an Initiative roll, especially if they "jump out of hiding" expecting unaware victims and wind up getting battle ready foes. The ambushers just might be "suprised" themselves. Maybe this is something that can be debated and possibly even added into the FAQ as suprises and ambushes are a commonplace event in role-playing games.

[Doktor Teufel]

Originally Posted by cccwebs

There's a little part that you may be overlooking. Under Partial Suprise, is says "The GM should require each side to roll for initiative."

I haven't overlooked it, it's the main focus of my befuddlement. According to the description of Total Surprise, wary PCs (or NPCs) simply cannot be taken completely by surprise. I suppose a perfectly planned ambush wherein the attackers are not noticed by any of the targets, and wherein the ambushers start firing immediately from ready vantage points, should be considered Total Surprise.

That leads me to feel there is some working room in the suprise rules to cover your ambush situation, though the rules are a bit "fuzzy" on it. I'd say that in your ambush situation, unless the players had some sort of warning about the impending attack, they wouldn't roll for initiative. Combat would occur as normal, except that those without Combat Reflexes would suffer from the rules for Total Suprise.

Yeah, what you just described is Total Surprise, to the letter -- but the way I read Total Surprise, wary, seasoned characters cannot be taken totally by surprise, period.

Maybe this is something that can be debated and possibly even added into the FAQ as suprises and ambushes are a commonplace event in role-playing games.

I hope so. Perhaps a little rain dance and an offering of a fattened calf might attract the attention of Dr. Kromm...

[Der Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Doktor Teufel

There is only one page's worth of information in the Basic Set (page B393) covering Surprise Attacks, and I've read through that page many times at this point. There are still a few details that perplex me.

First of all, Total Surprise is very difficult to achieve. To catch adventurers and adventurer-type NPCs completely by surprise, you either have to do something completely zany, unexpected and off-the-wall (werewolves bursting into the public library), or get them when they're sleeping or otherwise incredibly vulnerable. And even then, characters with Combat Reflexes (that's most hero-type characters) are never really caught completely off guard. If the attackers do manage to achieve Total Surprise, then there's no need to roll initiative; the attackers get one or more rounds free to do as they wish.

Partial Surprise is odd. If the PCs (or adventurer-grade NPCs) are wary and alert, there is simply no way to catch them totally by surprise. So let's say a bunch of enemy NPCs have set up an ambush for the PCs. The PCs don't notice them at all, but because they're wary, when the NPCs pop out of their hiding places to start shooting, both sides roll initiative.

That means that if attackers have an ambush set up and a wary group walks into the trap, the attackers could somehow lose initiative and the ones the ambushers intended to attack would end up getting one or more free turns instead!

That makes no sense to me. I can deal with the defenders getting to act normally, but getting to act BEFORE the ambushers? Wow.

Is there something I'm missing?

IMO the most important part:
The GM can apply other modifiers as he sees fit!!!
Partial surprise covers everything from two unaware parties running into each other to an ambush. In case of an ambush you would just give the ambushing group a bonus of +5??? to initiative for the first round so they go first, but unlike in a total surprise situation the ambushed party can react immediatly...

[Doktor Teufel]

Originally Posted by Der Wanderer

IMO the most important part:
The GM can apply other modifiers as he sees fit!!!
Partial surprise covers everything from two unaware parties running into each other to an ambush. In case of an ambush you would just give the ambushing group a bonus of +5??? to initiative for the first round so they go first, but unlike in a total surprise situation the ambushed party can react immediatly...

Well, in Partial Surprise, the losers of the initiative roll still are unable to act for at least one round, and they have to make their IQ roll to act.

[fredo1]

Initiative losers dont act first. They are mentally stunned and they have according penalties. When the winners of initiative are done with their actions, the losers take their turn, if they pass their IQ rolls to recover from mental stun. Those without Combat Reflexes are frozen if it was a Total Surprise situation.

[Der Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Doktor Teufel

Well, in Partial Surprise, the losers of the initiative roll still are unable to act for at least one round, and they have to make their IQ roll to act.

Ohh my bad...
But the main message is that the GM adds modifiers to the initiative rolls...
Both parties are surprised: no additional modifiers
A ambushes B: B (or the leader thereoff) gets -X to their rolls (X might be depending on how well A planned the success (marigin of success in their strategy? roll)

[Brandy]

Originally Posted by Doktor Teufel

That means that if attackers have an ambush set up and a wary group walks into the trap, the attackers could somehow lose initiative and the ones the ambushers intended to attack would end up getting one or more free turns instead!

That makes no sense to me. I can deal with the defenders getting to act normally, but getting to act BEFORE the ambushers? Wow.

This should be incredibly rare, but I find this possibility to be dramatically appropriate -- certainly there are times in the movies where the heroes gain a stunning reversal in an ambush situation because one of the attackers reveals himself too early by trodding on a twig or what-have-you.

Also, as I read the rules on Surprise, the Surprise situation seems to me (though I don't think it's quite explicit) to be describing the situation where the attackers and defenders can mutually perceive one another (i.e. backing up through the woods and bumping in to one another; entering the saloon and seeing the James gang; et cetera). This situation isn't entirely like the first salvo from an ambush -- either the attacker or defender may see his opponent but may be unable to act due to surprise.

The first shot from an unseen opponent (like sniper fire) doesn't, in my view, call for a surprise check until *after* the attack is made (and of course, no active defense would apply).

Take a look at Attack from Above, p. 402. In that situation, if the attacker fails to perceive the attacker, no defense is allowed and a surprise check may be called for in addition to the undefended attack from above.

An ambush situation calls for a contest of stealth or camouflage versus perception for the initial attack, not a surprise check -- though a surprise check is certainly apropos after that attack has occurred.

That's what the intent seems to me to be. I don't think it's errata, but if I'm on the right track, it could stand to be in the FAQ.

[fredo1]

Its all about vision, hearing and sometimes smell rolls. Who detects who first determines who goes first. I had a table for all those things in 3rd edition, an amalgam of all detection rules for GURPS (ecpecially those from Vehicles concerning +10 to all sense rolls, woods penalty, fog penalty, and so on. So, ambushers could find themselves in a nasty ambush themselves if they were spotted in time to react (a nasty "surprise", wouldnt you say:) )

[Kromm]

A crucial component that people are missing is this: In an ambush, if the ambushers make their Camouflage and/or Stealth rolls, and/or the victims make their rolls against Observation or Per by less or not at all, then the victims don't spot the ambushers. That's the entire point of Camouflage and Stealth; see the skill text. A person who hasn't detected a potential attacker doesn't get a defense roll when that foe attacks; see the bottom of the first column on p. B374. So if it's an ambush (i.e., attackers remain unspotted) and not a risky assault by the intended victims (i.e., would-be ambushers have good positions but are sighted and engaged), the ambushers ALWAYS get one free attack against no defenses.

AFTER that attack, you resolve surprise.

If the victims of the ambush were wary, use Partial Surprise. The opposing leader -- if he wasn't killed in the opening salvo -- might rally his men and take the initiative. This is why there's a modifier for one side being leaderless; always shoot at the guy with the radio. However, this is a situation where one side is more alert than the other, as flagged in the rules, and the ambushers should get a large bonus. Between that and taking out leaders, the modifiers should favor the ambushers. It isn't automatic, though.

Even if the ambushers somehow lose the initiative, all this really does is give the victims a "lull" in which to move, find cover, and/or look for their attackers. This is assuming that the ambush was a good one -- i.e., the leader of the ambushers made his Tactics roll -- and the ambushers are hidden some distance away from a location that offers their prey little cover. Victims who choose to counterattack might get a second or two in which to do so, but they aren't likely to hit anything if they're shooting at dug-in, concealed ambushers.

If the victims were caught with their pants down, use Total Surprise. In that case, the ambushers will continue to get "free attacks" until their victims do something useful.

In either case, once all surprise wears off, the ambushers will still have the advantages of bracing, concealment, cover, high ground, and/or properly deployed heavy weapons -- again, assuming their leader made his Tactics roll. Even if the victims seize the initiative, they won't be scoring hits with the same reliability as their attackers.

An example might look like this:

1st Platoon digs in around a barren stretch of road that LT Smith knows the enemy must traverse (successful roll against Smith's Tactics-12). SFC Jones has them place Claymores and set up MGs on high ground overlooking the road, and hide their positions with scrub and netting (successful roll against Jones' Tactics-14). The GM gives them +1 for equipment (nets and facepaint) and +2 more for having lots of time. The average trooper has Camouflage-12 (it's an Easy skill), so they roll against 15.

The enemy comes zooming up the road. Their scout is good -- Observation-15 -- and has binoculars (+3), but he's scanning cover that's 15 yards offroad, from a moving Jeep that's doing 30mph. He has a speed/range penalty of -7, making his roll 11. It's a Quick Contest of 11 vs. 15 to spot the enemy, and he loses by 4.

Smith waits until the enemy vehicles are within the kill zone, then gives the order. Claymores detonate. MGs bark. Rifles fire. The platoon's crack shot, PFC Pyle, drills the enemy leader through the helmet. Nobody on the opposing side gets any chance to dive for cover against this initial onslaught.

Now we check for surprise. The GM rules that becaue the enemy had a scout and knew to expect hostiles in the area, this can't be total surprise. Both sides roll 1d for partial surprise. There's almost certainly somebody with Combat Reflexes on both sides: +1. Tactics skill is evenly matched, and both sides have it: +1. The now-leaderless enemy is at -2 for losing their CO. And the GM assesses Smith and friends +4 because the enemy lost the initial Quick Contest of Observation vs. Camouflage by that much, and it's a good measure of relative alertness. So Smith rolls 1d+6 while the enemy rolls 1d. Smith of course wins, and the enemy takes fire for several more seconds before they can react.

Let's say Pyle missed his shot. Then Smith would roll 1d+6 against the enemy's 1d+2.

Smith could roll 1+6 = 7 against the enemy's 5+2 = 7, or 2+6 = 8 against the enemy's 6+2 = 8. In that case, there are no surprise attacks. The enemy still has to find cover that's 15 yards away, take time to spot their attackers, and fire back at a slightly elevated target that has cover, at a -8 or so. Smith and pals have only the -5 for range, and will be shooting aimed (+5 for assault rifles and LMGs) and braced (+1) at visible targets -- and probably rolling at +1 or so.

Smith could roll 1+6 = 7 against the enemy's 6+2 = 8 . . . it's a 2.8% chance, but it could happen. The enemy leader leaps into action and barks the order for a planned response! The enemy drivers veer off left and right at speed, men diving out facing the sides of the road. Some actually leave the kill zone, while others are prone, and one of Smith's squads has to dive out of the path of an unmanned Jeep coming in at 30 mph. Smith has to spend a few seconds giving orders. Jones is yelling at his men to move that MG. The enemy still has to find cover that's 15 yards away, take time to spot their attackers, and fire back at a slightly elevated target that has cover . . . but they get a few seconds to do this without being fired on at +1. They're still at -8 if they choose to shoot, though.

Things could be worse. The GM could give far less than +4 to Smith -- perhaps the enemy had better scouts, or a thermograph, or even a warning from an aircraft. Then the enemy leader is expecting an ambush and ready for it. All Smith controls is where, not what. He could actually find the tables turned when he fires that first shot, because the response could be a barrage of grenade launcher fire, or even artillery support.

Things could be better. Smith, Jones, Pyle, et al. might be crack troopers with Combat Reflexes, high Tactics, better IQ, etc., and/or the enemy could be green recruits or REMFs with useless training, for up to +3 more on Smith's roll. Or this could be 50 klicks behind the lines, in an area the enemy considers secure, and the convoy could be manned by the tired and wounded leaving the combat zone. In that case, the GM might use total surprise.