Two-weapons and club

phiwum · 02-28-2022, 09:23 AM

I have been asked whether one can use the two-weapons skill with clubs -- without having any other weapon talents at all.

Since club appears in the Ax/Mace section of the Weapons Table, one could rule that you need Ax/Mace so that you have some actual proficiency before you can use Two-Weapons. Else, Two-Weapons and club is a pretty cheap option that gives some offensive advantage and a lot of defensive advantages.

But I can't really come up with a convincing argument (to me) that you'd need Ax/Mace or any other weapons talent in order to use Two-Weapons with clubs. Nonetheless, I thought it would be prudent to ask here and see if others disagree or regard this as bordering on abuse of RAW.

hcobb · 02-28-2022, 09:45 AM

The effectiveness of clubs are amplified by bare handed damage ITL being one point higher than the Melee/Wizard examples. Throwing a javelin does more damage if you flip it over and toss it like a stick.

Shostak · 02-28-2022, 11:04 AM

I would allow Two Weapons with clubs, but would require Axe/Mace talent for use of clubs without an unskilled penalty. The idea that a mace, which is essentially just a weighted club (with the possibility of some pointy or sharp bits added to the weighted end), requires a talent while an ordinary club doesn't is absurd.

phiwum · 02-28-2022, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shostak

I would allow Two Weapons with clubs, but would require Axe/Mace talent for use of clubs without an unskilled penalty. The idea that a mace, which is essentially just a weighted club (with the possibility of some pointy or sharp bits added to the weighted end), requires a talent while an ordinary club doesn't is absurd.

Are you suggesting, Shostak, that in every situation, using a club without Axe/Mace talent should be unskilled or only when combined with Two Weapons?

Shostak · 02-28-2022, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phiwum

Are you suggesting, Shostak, that in every situation, using a club without Axe/Mace talent should be unskilled or only when combined with Two Weapons?

In all situations. This isn't to suggest that swinging a club is particularly difficult, but that the talent confers a knowledge of how to do so effectively in combat, just as swinging an axe to chop wood is relatively simple, but wielding one in a fight is less so.

phiwum · 02-28-2022, 01:17 PM

You may well have a point, Shostak, but I'm not changing that part of RAW in my game. I reckon that clubs are allowed to be used without a talent just so one can improvise weapons. It would, after all, be hard to understand how a fellow with a 50/50 chance of hitting barehanded would drop down to about a 16% chance to hit when he picks up a baseball bat[1].

Of course, it's equally hard to understand how that same fighter might swing a bat with a 50/50 chance to hit, but drop to 16% when he picks up a mace.

So, given that I keep the untalented use of clubs unchanged, would it be reasonable to wield two clubs just by spending two talent points for Two Weapons skill?

[1] The figures are for a DX 10 fighter, who would throw four dice when using a weapon with which he's unskilled.

02-28-2022, 09:23 AM	#1
phiwum Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Boston area	Two-weapons and club I have been asked whether one can use the two-weapons skill with clubs -- without having any other weapon talents at all. Since club appears in the Ax/Mace section of the Weapons Table, one could rule that you need Ax/Mace so that you have some actual proficiency before you can use Two-Weapons. Else, Two-Weapons and club is a pretty cheap option that gives some offensive advantage and a lot of defensive advantages. But I can't really come up with a convincing argument (to me) that you'd need Ax/Mace or any other weapons talent in order to use Two-Weapons with clubs. Nonetheless, I thought it would be prudent to ask here and see if others disagree or regard this as bordering on abuse of RAW.

02-28-2022, 09:45 AM	#2
hcobb Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Pacheco, California	Re: Two-weapons and club The effectiveness of clubs are amplified by bare handed damage ITL being one point higher than the Melee/Wizard examples. Throwing a javelin does more damage if you flip it over and toss it like a stick. __________________ -HJC

02-28-2022, 11:04 AM	#3
Shostak Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: New England	Re: Two-weapons and club I would allow Two Weapons with clubs, but would require Axe/Mace talent for use of clubs without an unskilled penalty. The idea that a mace, which is essentially just a weighted club (with the possibility of some pointy or sharp bits added to the weighted end), requires a talent while an ordinary club doesn't is absurd. __________________ * * * * Anthony Shostak myriangia.wordpress.com

02-28-2022, 01:17 PM	#6
phiwum Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Boston area	Re: Two-weapons and club You may well have a point, Shostak, but I'm not changing that part of RAW in my game. I reckon that clubs are allowed to be used without a talent just so one can improvise weapons. It would, after all, be hard to understand how a fellow with a 50/50 chance of hitting barehanded would drop down to about a 16% chance to hit when he picks up a baseball bat[1]. Of course, it's equally hard to understand how that same fighter might swing a bat with a 50/50 chance to hit, but drop to 16% when he picks up a mace. So, given that I keep the untalented use of clubs unchanged, would it be reasonable to wield two clubs just by spending two talent points for Two Weapons skill? [1] The figures are for a DX 10 fighter, who would throw four dice when using a weapon with which he's unskilled.