Electric Vs. Gas

Daimyo_Shi · 06-23-2021, 10:07 PM

So the Eletric Vs. Gas has always puzzled me, I never played Dueltrack in it original form so I only familiar Gas from the Compendium Era onwards. Because of this I never been sure what gas engines were suppose to well. Acceleration is figured the same way [Yes I realize there are a couple modifications that push this beyond what Electric can do.] But the top speed formula heavily favours electric with equal power factors and weight.

Quote:

Every car will also have a top speed, based on the following formula:
360 x power factors/(power factors + weight) for electric power plants,
or 240 x power factors/(power factors + weight) for internal
combustion engines, rounded down to a multiple of 2.5 mph.

Car Wars Compendium p. 73

The only advantages I can see is Varity of Engines, which may allow better Ratio with Cars and a sometime space advantage if you tweek you Gas tank and engine just right. There is a weight advantage 300 CID for sure but you really start trading spaces at that point instead. The Three Biggest have great top speeds but you trade space for that. maybe I just don't have the right experence with it. Thoughts and comment?

swordtart · 06-24-2021, 03:23 PM

Every component is a balancing act. Good in some situations, bad in others.

There is no magic bullet :)

43Supporter · 06-24-2021, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daimyo_Shi

Thoughts and comment?

I'll be frank: _CW_'s "view" of Electric V. Gas is a product of its time.

At the time, Electric Cars were extremely heavy, due to the need for massive numbers of batteries to store the electricity. Weight being the enemy of performance, electric cars in the 1970s-80s did not accelerate, brake, or handle very well. Now, after some four decades of development, Electric cars can -- and do -- outperform "conventional" gasburners; tho' this is more to do with how the power is transmitted to the road (a gasburning engine used as an electricity generator for an electric driveline can generate the equivalent of Acceleration 30 in a 3,000-lb. car). These days, the critical failure point for Electrics is Range, and even that has improved past what _CW_ has published (some modern electrics can run 300 miles at 65 MPH, compared with _CW_'s "200 miles at 55 MPH").

There was another aspect of _CW_ which was a product of its time: The notion "the oil is going to run out" -- this was just after the '70s Oil Crises (note plural), among other points. (There is a certain irony in that the development of Electric Cars is proceeding about in parallel with the _CW_ timeline, but not as a result of oil running out, or Grain Blights, or any of that.) However, four decades on, folks have figured out how to "make" fuel from non-dinosaur sources -- including, in the height of Irony here, algae.

These two points caused a bit of a problem for _CW_ -- Electrics, as written, were poor performers as compared with Gasburners, which has proven to be Not The Case; in fact, in some respects, Gas and Electric Performance should be reversed (see above). Also, as noted: It's become much easier to create gasoline "replacements" (biodiesel; hydrogen fuel cells; etc.). So the justification for Electric Power Plants becomes much harder. (I can attest to this -- the "standard" power pack for _CW_ past about Div. 20 when I was playing regularly was a 150cid with Turbo; even a Large plant with PCs was just too heavy to go against the 6-8d6 gun batteries we saw.) This led to the attempts to "nerf" gas engines -- the weight increase, and the top-speed penalty -- which didn't really work out.

There's other stuff, but the above is the most-relevant part -- it's kind of the same as how _OGRE_ doesn't have Air Power, despite the fact Air Power has become ever more important to warfare, while tanks are rapidly becoming literal dinosaurs as well as figurative ones.

Daimyo_Shi · 06-24-2021, 08:51 PM

So if the last few days of taking various Vehicle designs from ADQ have taught me anything, it is that I likely have a tendency to overpower my cars in the plant department, so that might be why I have an difference of opinion on Electrics vs. Gas. My tanks for the responses.

https://autoduelingandmapleleaves.ob.../beaver-motors

A small example of my designs and a couple updates of some of the Police Designs from Sunday Drives/Crash City.

43Supporter · 06-25-2021, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daimyo_Shi

https://autoduelingandmapleleaves.ob.../beaver-motors

OK, first off: Love the company name. (Beaver is my "totem", so to speak).

Second: Like the designs -- maybe a bit undergunned, but definitely decently-armored, and perform well.

Daimyo_Shi · 06-25-2021, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 43Supporter

OK, first off: Love the company name. (Beaver is my "totem", so to speak).

Second: Like the designs -- maybe a bit undergunned, but definitely decently-armored, and perform well.

Based on my current experiences looking at ADQ feature designs, I says Flight is always an option in my designs. The Monte Carlo is an Oil Executives toy at best. And putting Thundercats into anything is a bit of chore.

As for the Beaver it is the national Animal of Canada and honestly their is nothing more Canadians with Second generation Canadians opening a business with patriotic names plates. :)

swordtart · 06-26-2021, 02:25 AM

Always good to see new designs, especially for public utility vehicles.

It would also be useful to get a Canadian perspective on CW lore. The lack of information means you are now our resident subject matter expert :)

I always assumed there would be a RCADA (Royal Canadian Autoduel Association). I am not sure if the Quebecois version would be QADA or AADQ (it would depend if the parent organisation named it or it was named by the Quebec faction). The French tend to be quite dogmatic about rebadging things in the French language (e.g. OTAN vs the rest of the world using NATO). We presumed that if Quebec had declared independence from the rest of Canada it would be equally dogmatic in insisting on full translations rather than using borrowed words. As UK royalty had fled to Canada we also assumed that the ties to the mother country would be reinforced and that Royal patronage would be a feature of the CW future.

Our group at least held the RCMP in high esteem. I think "Due South" romanticised our view of the Mountie as polite, dogged and incorruptible. Whether this is actually true or a discredited fantasy is less relevant here than what we want the fantasy of the RCMP in CW to be. However we do tend to extrapolate from the real-world.

At the time we played (where there was no internet) we assumed that the "Mounties" were the only police force in Canada. We had plenty of exposure to the local, regional and federal police of the US via movies and their bounded jurisdictions (hammered home by the Duke boys "running for the county line"). I suspect none of us really realised that our own UK Police had an equally disjointed jurisdiction and assumed that "UK Police" was a single entity rather than a federation of regional forces (or indeed that there was in fact a force with nationwide jurisdiction in the British Transport Police). Now of course we can minutely investigate the structure of our own and other nations police forces (and that same communications benefit means those forces are probably now far more joined up than they used to be).

svawter · 07-02-2021, 02:27 AM

late in the game they corrected some of the issues with electric power plant acceleration issues:

http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.html?id=2211
High Torque Motors (HTM, +5 and especially Heavy Duty HTM: DOUBLED!) but these drop top speed too much to build a Tesla in Car Wars 😃

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daimyo_Shi

So the Eletric Vs. Gas has always puzzled me, I never played Dueltrack in it original form so I only familiar Gas from the Compendium Era onwards. Because of this I never been sure what gas engines were suppose to well. Acceleration is figured the same way [Yes I realize there are a couple modifications that push this beyond what Electric can do.] But the top speed formula heavily favours electric with equal power factors and weight.

Car Wars Compendium p. 73

The only advantages I can see is Varity of Engines, which may allow better Ratio with Cars and a sometime space advantage if you tweek you Gas tank and engine just right. There is a weight advantage 300 CID for sure but you really start trading spaces at that point instead. The Three Biggest have great top speeds but you trade space for that. maybe I just don't have the right experence with it. Thoughts and comment?

juris · 07-02-2021, 03:10 PM

Agree HT motors were necessary for 'balance' in the arena - probably the best solution. On the track it made electrics even better racers - in addition to the high top speed they now had an AC of 20 - you just had to turn them off once you started taking engine damage.

It continues to annoy me that a 150 cid engine (3 space engine - 375 lbs!) with a turbo and a 5 gallon tank is enough to power a lux arena tank car. This should never have happened.

I don't think the designers of Duel Track had exploiter vehicles like this in mind. They were clearly only thinking of high-end gas burners:

Boom Stick -- Pickup, Extra-Heavy chassis, Light suspension, 100 cid engine, 5-gal Duelling Tank, Heavy-Duty Transmission, 6 Steelbelted Puncture-Resistant tires, Driver w/SWC and BA and 10-pt CA, 2 Linked Anti-Tank Guns Front each w/10 shots APFSDS, Oil Discharger Back, Composite Metal/Fireproof Plastic Armor: F13/8, L10/6, R10/6, B10/5, T0/5, U0/5, 2 10-pt Fireproof Wheelguards Back, 2 10-pt Fireproof Wheelhubs Front, Acceleration 2.5, Top Speed 32.5, HC 0, 7800 lbs., $19980

Quote:

Originally Posted by svawter

late in the game they corrected some of the issues with electric power plant acceleration issues:

http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.html?id=2211
High Torque Motors (HTM, +5 and especially Heavy Duty HTM: DOUBLED!) but these drop top speed too much to build a Tesla in Car Wars ��

swordtart · 07-02-2021, 04:50 PM

A 2007 2.5 litre (152 cid) turbo Ford Modeo has a curb side weight of 3289lb and can do 0-70 in 7 second (Acc 10). It has a top speed of 152 mph.

The same engine in a CW vehicle of that weight (even without including the driver) has an ACC of 10/15 but a top speed of only 100.

If we go old school the Mk3 Ford Escort has a 1.6L turbo engine (100 CID). Its 0-60 is just under 9 seconds (Acc 6). Kerbside weight is 2100lb. Top Speed was 128. CW gives a Acc of 10/15 but a top speed of 102.5

Renault Espace 2l (120 CID - hard to do in CW) carburettor non-turbo. Kerb side weight 2700lb. 0-60 just under 12s (Acc 5) top speed 100. CW 100 CID Acc 5 top speed 67.5. CW 150 CID Acc 10 top speed 87.5

Of course there is more to performance than the engine size. Turbos shouldn't give a flat 5 Acc boost. Maybe some of the cars above should have benefited from streamlining. Acc is not generally linear. Manual transmissions should impact your ability to accelerate.

It's all rather random. The main thing is that we actually knew what gas performance was in the 1980's but couldn't get it right. Electric performance was a complete guess.

06-24-2021, 03:23 PM	#2
swordtart Join Date: Jun 2008	Re: Electric Vs. Gas Every component is a balancing act. Good in some situations, bad in others. There is no magic bullet :)

06-24-2021, 08:51 PM	#4
Daimyo_Shi Join Date: Jun 2021 Location: Calgary, Alberta	Re: Electric Vs. Gas So if the last few days of taking various Vehicle designs from ADQ have taught me anything, it is that I likely have a tendency to overpower my cars in the plant department, so that might be why I have an difference of opinion on Electrics vs. Gas. My tanks for the responses. https://autoduelingandmapleleaves.ob.../beaver-motors A small example of my designs and a couple updates of some of the Police Designs from Sunday Drives/Crash City. Last edited by Daimyo_Shi; 06-24-2021 at 08:55 PM. Reason: Wrong word

06-26-2021, 02:25 AM	#7
swordtart Join Date: Jun 2008	Re: Electric Vs. Gas Always good to see new designs, especially for public utility vehicles. It would also be useful to get a Canadian perspective on CW lore. The lack of information means you are now our resident subject matter expert :) I always assumed there would be a RCADA (Royal Canadian Autoduel Association). I am not sure if the Quebecois version would be QADA or AADQ (it would depend if the parent organisation named it or it was named by the Quebec faction). The French tend to be quite dogmatic about rebadging things in the French language (e.g. OTAN vs the rest of the world using NATO). We presumed that if Quebec had declared independence from the rest of Canada it would be equally dogmatic in insisting on full translations rather than using borrowed words. As UK royalty had fled to Canada we also assumed that the ties to the mother country would be reinforced and that Royal patronage would be a feature of the CW future. Our group at least held the RCMP in high esteem. I think "Due South" romanticised our view of the Mountie as polite, dogged and incorruptible. Whether this is actually true or a discredited fantasy is less relevant here than what we want the fantasy of the RCMP in CW to be. However we do tend to extrapolate from the real-world. At the time we played (where there was no internet) we assumed that the "Mounties" were the only police force in Canada. We had plenty of exposure to the local, regional and federal police of the US via movies and their bounded jurisdictions (hammered home by the Duke boys "running for the county line"). I suspect none of us really realised that our own UK Police had an equally disjointed jurisdiction and assumed that "UK Police" was a single entity rather than a federation of regional forces (or indeed that there was in fact a force with nationwide jurisdiction in the British Transport Police). Now of course we can minutely investigate the structure of our own and other nations police forces (and that same communications benefit means those forces are probably now far more joined up than they used to be). Last edited by swordtart; 06-26-2021 at 03:52 AM.

07-02-2021, 04:50 PM	#10
swordtart Join Date: Jun 2008	Re: Electric Vs. Gas A 2007 2.5 litre (152 cid) turbo Ford Modeo has a curb side weight of 3289lb and can do 0-70 in 7 second (Acc 10). It has a top speed of 152 mph. The same engine in a CW vehicle of that weight (even without including the driver) has an ACC of 10/15 but a top speed of only 100. If we go old school the Mk3 Ford Escort has a 1.6L turbo engine (100 CID). Its 0-60 is just under 9 seconds (Acc 6). Kerbside weight is 2100lb. Top Speed was 128. CW gives a Acc of 10/15 but a top speed of 102.5 Renault Espace 2l (120 CID - hard to do in CW) carburettor non-turbo. Kerb side weight 2700lb. 0-60 just under 12s (Acc 5) top speed 100. CW 100 CID Acc 5 top speed 67.5. CW 150 CID Acc 10 top speed 87.5 Of course there is more to performance than the engine size. Turbos shouldn't give a flat 5 Acc boost. Maybe some of the cars above should have benefited from streamlining. Acc is not generally linear. Manual transmissions should impact your ability to accelerate. It's all rather random. The main thing is that we actually knew what gas performance was in the 1980's but couldn't get it right. Electric performance was a complete guess.