When Can a Character Disengage?

[Jack O'All Trades]

RAW, it seems like a character can disengage if they are:
1) engaged at the time of their combat action, and
2) moved 1 or 0 hexes during the movement phase.

It does not seem like one can disengage after moving more than 2 hexes (so no 'fake charges'). I want to make sure that I'm reading that correctly, however.

Furthermore, does this happen before or after poleweapon attacks?

[Lord Twig]

I think you have that right. If you are not engaged, then you cannot disengage. Which makes sense. And disengaging is the only option that allows you to move during the action phase, so figures shouldn't be moving to engage you during the action phase. Unless they also disengaged and moved to engage you instead? I guess it could happen.

Pole weapon attacks used with or against charging attacks would go first. Then anyone with a higher adjusted DX would go. Then finally you would go and be able to disengage. As stated in the book, if your opponent has a higher DX, they will be able to hit you before you step back.

Then, of course, you have to win initiative next round, otherwise your opponent can just step up and engage you again. You can only run away if you win the initiative roll.

Personally I added a house rule called, "Turn and Run". It is another engaged option that allows you to move up to your full movement when you are engaged, but you can do nothing else. Also, the operative word is "Turn". On the movement phase if you run away, everyone that has you engaged gets a free shot at your back (+4DX).

[Jack O'All Trades]

Tthe most ambiguous case is two opposing characters who are disengaged standing with 1 hex between them. Side A wins initiative and steps into the hex, engaging Side B. Side B can only shift on its movement. It is clear that Side B could disengage as its action - it was engaged, and only shifted (or stood still) for movement. Side A is engaged in its action phase - so my impression is that normally one should allow Side A to perform actions that require being engaged (like Defend). However it technically did a 1 hex normal move, not a shift. RAW would seem to suggest that Side A cannot disengage, but this seems similar enough to Defend (which also has somewhat ambiguous rules) that it perhaps should be allowed. Allowing Side A to disengage allows a kind of 'feinting' and using high DX characters to engage low DX enemies during movement and then back up to avoid actual fighting. On the other hand this might be too powerful and the intention of RAW might be to avoid that possibility and only allow disengaging as a fundamentally defensive action. I need to check my old copy - I'm curious if the wording has shifted.

Regarding polearms: Yeah, upon review the rules are clear. It is a slightly strange result tho - if you have higher DX and space, you can indefinitely run from a swordsman (even if they win initiative, you disengage again). Against spears keeping a greater distance matters a lot more for the fragile skirmisher, both because some enemies can simply recharge you again and again if you disengage, and because even slow enemies will be able to jab you while you disengage. I suppose this reflects the ability of spears to quickly change the point and reach of their attack - you really do need to give them more space if you want to avoid any attacks. And of course if you're running away the rules allow you to always win initiative to continue the retreat without getting repeatedly jabbed (so long as you're faster than the enemy). I suppose I should play that that includes "tactical retreats" as well as full on routs - so long as a side is just disengaging and moving away from the enemy it does not need to roll initiative, until it decides to take a turn to do anything else.

[Skarg]

Either A or B could Disengage.

For what options are allowed during the Action phase, it does not matter what the engagement status was during the movement phase, and it does not matter what option you had in mind, thought you were going to take, or even declared, during the movement phase, as long as you didn't actually do something that performs the action.

As was made clear in the old Changing Options section that was sadly edited out of the Legacy edition, you can change options at any time up until you actually act on it, and the only things that determine what action you can take are whether you are engaged or not at the time you do the action, and how far you moved during the movement phase.

[Jack O'All Trades]

Originally Posted by Skarg

For what options are allowed during the Action phase, it does not matter what the engagement status was during the movement phase...
As was made clear in the old Changing Options section that was sadly edited out of the Legacy edition, you can change options at any time up until you actually act on it, and the only things that determine what action you can take are whether you are engaged or not at the time you do the action, and how far you moved during the movement phase.

I agree with all of this, but the detailed description of Disengage seems to suggest this is a special case where 'how far you moved' isn't relevant, only allowing for shifts (therefore requiring you to be engaged) or standing still. I think the rules might be trying to clarify that disengage is a separate, 1 hex move during the action phase, not putting a clear limit on the allowed movement in the movement phase.

Skarg, do you play a maximum of 1 hex move (but it does not need to be a shift) to allow a disengage action?

[hcobb]

ITL 106: "A figure that selects the “disengage” option stands still or shifts during its movement phase. When its turn to attack comes, instead of attacking, it moves one hex in any direction."

So it is clear that you can only move one hex and then the second hex for your disengage.

But any character can do a full half move, then move one hex, then attack at range zero.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Jack O'All Trades

I agree with all of this, but the detailed description of Disengage seems to suggest this is a special case where 'how far you moved' isn't relevant, only allowing for shifts (therefore requiring you to be engaged) or standing still. I think the rules might be trying to clarify that disengage is a separate, 1 hex move during the action phase, not putting a clear limit on the allowed movement in the movement phase.

Skarg, do you play a maximum of 1 hex move (but it does not need to be a shift) to allow a disengage action?

Yes, the requirement for Disengagement is only that you are currently in the Front hex of a foe, and that during Movement you moved either 0 or 1 hexes (shift or not doesn't matter).

Again, this was explicit in the old rules: "CHANGING OPTIONS It is legal to change options AFTER the movement part of a turn, to meet changing conditions. The only requirement is that the figure must not have already moved more than the NEW options allows. If you moved 0 or 1 hex, you may switch to any option..."


I think the detailed description of Disengage (in Legacy ITL, on page 106) mentions Shift to help players understand the typical situation where a figure starts a turn Engaged, so during Movement it can only shift 0 or 1 hex, and then if it is still Engaged, it could Disengage. I do not think that this means that a figure who was not Engaged and moved 1, then got Engaged, can't then Disengage merely because it's 1-hex move is not termed a Shift because it wasn't Engaged at the start of its Movement phase.

(I think that's the unfortunate type of confusion created by trying to use the Options list as a system for constraining options across both the Movement Phase and the Action phase, which I am sure is not Steve's intent, because original Wizard and Advanced Melee spelled out that that was not the case, and I can't imagine Steve intentionally trying to add weird literal requirements.)

[Tom H.]

Originally Posted by Skarg

For what options are allowed during the Action phase, it does not matter what the engagement status was during the movement phase, and it does not matter what option you had in mind, thought you were going to take, or even declared, during the movement phase, as long as you didn't actually do something that performs the action.

I'm still learning the game, but I think a rule on p. 6 of Melee would clear up these issues.

The options available to a figure depend on whether it is engaged, disengaged, or in HTH combat at the moment its turn to move comes.

Originally Posted by Jack O'All Trades

Side A is engaged in its action phase - so my impression is that normally one should allow Side A to perform actions that require being engaged (like Defend).

In your full example, I believe A would be forced to choose from the disengaged options because it was "not engaged with an enemy when its turn comes to move" (see also, Melee p. 6).

Anyway, let me know if I missed something.

[Skarg]

Yes, and that word "move" means "act" (as in "your move, Bob" - that is, when you actually choose what to do and do it, during the Action phase), not that you are supposed to remember the engagement state at the time the figure got to move during the Movement phase.

It is a tragic typo, which gets repeated in the new ITL, because it causes a lot of confusion.

If you play it literally as meaning you're supposed to remember whether you were engaged at the start of your movement, and have that determine what you can do when it's your time to act, it will create all sorts of silly unintended effects, undermine logical cause and effect, etc.

[Tom H.]

Originally Posted by Skarg

Yes, and that word "move" means "act" (as in "your move, Bob" - that is, when you actually choose what to do and do it, during the Action phase), not that you are supposed to remember the engagement state at the time the figure got to move during the Movement phase.

It is a tragic typo, which gets repeated in the new ITL, because it causes a lot of confusion.

If you play it literally as meaning you're supposed to remember whether you were engaged at the start of your movement, and have that determine what you can do when it's your time to act, it will create all sorts of silly unintended effects, undermine logical cause and effect, etc.

Hmmm, it's hard for me to see the rules that way, but it does leave slight room for ambiguity.

In any event, when you take a disengaged option, you do have to at least remember whether your figure can attack or not once the Combat phase begins.

For better or worse, having to remember implications of actions in progress is one thing that does complicate systems (I'm looking at you GURPS ;-)).