Splitting up the Thief talent

[Steve Jackson]

One way to do it: substitute for Thief and Master Thief:

Locksmith (1). Ability to open locks. Requires specialized tools which have no significant weight. To pick an ordinary lock, roll 3 dice vs. DX; you may try once per minute until you succeed. This skill is of less use against magically locked doors (see Doors, p. 00), and some locks require more than 3 dice to pick. The Thieves’ Guild teaches this talent; see Thieves’ Guild. But there are legitimate locksmiths too.
The GM may let non-Thief characters try to pick very simple locks, at a penalty of one or more dice.

Pickpocket (1): Roll 3 dice vs. DX to pick a pocket or steal a purse; failure means you’re noticed. Roll only 2 dice if some distraction is arranged to fool your victim. Pickpocketing with subtlety is hard and unskilled rolls should not be allowed. The Thieves’ Guild teaches this talent; see Thieves’ Guild.

Master Locksmith (1). Prerequisites: Locksmith talent and DX 13 or better. You roll 1 fewer dice to pick any lock. This talent may be learned from the Thieves’ Guild (q.v.).

Master Pickpocket (1). Prerequisites: Pickpocket talent and DX 14 or better. You roll 1 fewer dice to pick any pocket. This talent must be learned from the Thieves’ Guild (q.v.).

Streetwise (1): Knowledge of the local underworld and the Thieves’ Argot, the secret slang of thieves. Roll vs. IQ to find fences, smugglers, or other criminal businessmen, or to “blend in” in a dive bar or the like, even in a strange town.

[Terquem]

I have always liked the idea that "thieves" and "Cat Burglars" are different sorts of characters requiring different sorts of talents

Building a character to pick pockets and survive on the streets might be different from building a character to scale walls and sneak into townhouses to engage in some creative borrowing

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

One way to do it: substitute for Thief and Master Thief:

Locksmith (1). Ability to open locks. Requires specialized tools which have no significant weight. To pick an ordinary lock, roll 3 dice vs. DX; you may try once per minute until you succeed. This skill is of less use against magically locked doors (see Doors, p. 00), and some locks require more than 3 dice to pick. The Thieves’ Guild teaches this talent; see Thieves’ Guild. But there are legitimate locksmiths too.
The GM may let non-Thief characters try to pick very simple locks, at a penalty of one or more dice.

Pickpocket (1): Roll 3 dice vs. DX to pick a pocket or steal a purse; failure means you’re noticed. Roll only 2 dice if some distraction is arranged to fool your victim. Pickpocketing with subtlety is hard and unskilled rolls should not be allowed. The Thieves’ Guild teaches this talent; see Thieves’ Guild.

Master Locksmith (1). Prerequisites: Locksmith talent and DX 13 or better. You roll 1 fewer dice to pick any lock. This talent may be learned from the Thieves’ Guild (q.v.).

Master Pickpocket (1). Prerequisites: Pickpocket talent and DX 14 or better. You roll 1 fewer dice to pick any pocket. This talent must be learned from the Thieves’ Guild (q.v.).

Streetwise (1): Knowledge of the local underworld and the Thieves’ Argot, the secret slang of thieves. Roll vs. IQ to find fences, smugglers, or other criminal businessmen, or to “blend in” in a dive bar or the like, even in a strange town.

Hi Steve, everyone.
I'm fine with this. Generally, I prefer talents that do one thing, than grab bag talents that do a lot of different things.

I would write, "Locksmith is taught by Locksmiths AND the thieves guild..." etc.

You might want to write somewhere that to build locks you need Mechanician talent.

Warm regards, Rick.

[luguvalium]

It makes sense to split these up.

What IQ is required for each talent? 10 for locksmith, pickpocket, and streetwise? 12 for master locksmith and master pickpocket?

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

I would write, "Locksmith is taught by Locksmiths AND the thieves guild..." etc.

There could be a separate Locksmiths Guild, but I think it would make sense for the Mechanicians Guild to teach locksmithing. If you know how enough to make locks, you know enough to pick them. But the Theives and Mechanicians Guild would try to keep this skill a secret and not teach it to outsiders under normal circumstances.

[Steve Jackson]

I actually wrote a line about the Locksmiths' Guild and then erased it because of word count creep. Yes, in all but the largest cities the Locksmiths would be a SIG, so to speak, under the Mechanicians.

If the Thieves' Guild were really an organized thing, they would probably have an annual contest with the Locksmiths!

[larsdangly]

I can see why these were bundled originally; it is one of several little corners of the game that always reminded me a bit of the way Dragonquest bundled skills together into a small number (about a dozen) 'mega skills' that acted almost like D+D classes (except you could distribute your EXP to rise in as many or as few of those 'skill-classes' as you wish). It is a clever, elegant way to simplify a skill-based game. BUT that isn't really how most of TFT works, and you would have to walk a long way down that path before you got to something significantly different (even if that was something you wanted). So, I'd say it is a better design idea to do what you are suggesting.

[ak_aramis]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

I actually wrote a line about the Locksmiths' Guild and then erased it because of word count creep. Yes, in all but the largest cities the Locksmiths would be a SIG, so to speak, under the Mechanicians.

If the Thieves' Guild were really an organized thing, they would probably have an annual contest with the Locksmiths!

Thieves guilds are not a fantasy creation; the name may be, tho'. Organized crime well predates the mafia. Pickpockets/cutpurses were often well organized gangs; it really helps to have partners in such crimes.

[JLV]

"Thieves' cant" (a private language used by thieves; many of their slang words are now commonly accepted by proper English) was in vogue long before the Napoleonic Wars in England -- and had probably been in use for at least a century or two by then, along with recognition signs among thieves (at least in Western Europe).

A "secret" language sort of indicates a certain level of organization, I'd say...

[tomc]

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

Hi Steve, everyone.
I'm fine with this. Generally, I prefer talents that do one thing, than grab bag talents that do a lot of different things.

Either can be good for me. What I really appreciate is new talents that don't require much in the way of new rules. These are about right.

[Skarg]

I really like this breakdown. Those are all different abilities.

Do we also get a talent for Deception? [howitzer]Maybe a level 2 Masterful Deception? Manipulator? Master Manipulator?[/howitzer]

It seemed off that ITL Thief required pickpocketing and lockpicking to be learned together. Not to mention the Master level also including lying and a language.

I don't agree with Ty that it's good to anticipate PCs always wanting to learn both. In my original TFT campaign, a warrior/adventurer PC went to the Thieves' Guild and learned Thief without really being a Thief - he tried to train his pet Slinker to pick locks, but I don't remember him pickpocketing anyone (I think he mainly wanted to pass as a thief to get the Thieves Guild to teach him Detect Traps, and before long he had the Wizard's Guild telepathically erase the Thief talent).