Costs of spells and talents - requirements.

Rick_Smith · 07-16-2018, 04:00 AM

Hi all,
This thread makes certain assumptions.

-- While the memory for wizards is fine, memory for heroes is too little.
-- We would like to have some cool talents for heroes. (Steve is working on this. Thanks!!!)
-- Wizards get all the breaks compared to wizards and something should be done to equalize things.

And I would like to make a special nod to what JLV posted in another thread...

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLV

I'd just as soon do away with that whole "memory slots" nonsense.

Unless I am misremembering, he has had a long running campaign where there are no memory limits, and talents and spells are bought for experience (XP). These costs are high enough that people get new spells / talents slowly. This gets rid of the mIQ economy, but has one problem, discussed later.

***
FIRST POINT

Let us think about new TFT, with the current rules (memory IQ (mIQ) is strictly limited). We want to make a high DX, high ST tank. Assuming that you can pick your IQ worth of mIQ for starting talents, we might have a guy that looks like this:

Groo the Wanderer, ST 12, DX 12, IQ 8. Skills: Sword, Knife, Brawling, Shield, Running, & Horsemanship. mIQ spent = 8.

We decide that Groo is a dumb fighter and gleefully buy up his ST and DX while leaving his IQ low. Lots of 'Groo is dumb' and 'cheese dip' jokes.

Eventually Groo becomes:
Groo the Wanderer, ST 16, DX 16, IQ 8. Skills: Sword, Knife, Brawling, Shield, Running, & Horsemanship. mIQ spent = 8.

What does Groo spend experience on now? Wizards can put attributes into raising their Staff's mana attribute. But Groo is done. He can't spend any more experience.

This is an extreme example. But it can come up quite quickly for low IQ figures.

In the new TFT, using the current, strict, mIQ rules, characters can max out and have no legal places to spend experience on.

I am bothered by that. If wizards are able to spend extra experience for their staves, it would be nice if heroes could spend experience on something (call it the X factor) other than just talents and attributes. Heck, given that theme that wizards get all the breaks, I wouldn't even mind if wizards can spend experience on the X factor as well.)

EDIT: I remember that Groo can buy some Karma to get out of a bad situation. But my understanding is that you can only get a bit of Karma at a time.

Warm regards, Rick.

Chris Rice · 07-16-2018, 04:21 AM

I agree that I don't want a "memory cap." It's fine as a way of limiting and defining beginning characters but in a long running campaign it should be possible to go beyond these restrictions without necessarily raising IQ.

There are various ways to do this. I split attributes into their component parts (based on the David Dunham article in Different Worlds magazine that I mentioned in another thread). This solved the problem for me. Characters could use XP to increase their "Knowledge" stat, allowing them to buy new Talents without changing other attributes. But you could keep the 3 attributes and allow direct purchase of Talents with XP. To me, this is a bit less elegant but does work.

As to what the Hero can spend XP on? I agree some advanced combat Talents would be nice, as long as they are well balanced and fit the system. A certain amount of Attribute increase is also fine. But I think Karma/Luck/Fate points would be a useful spend for a Hero. After all what's a Hero without luck: a dead Hero!

So I think between extra Talents, Attribute increase and Fate points there will be enough for a Hero to spend XP on.

(PS. Rick, if you'd like to see a copy of that article by David Dunham, send me your email and I'll forward you a copy.)

Regards. Chris

Rick_Smith · 07-16-2018, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

I agree that I don't want a "memory cap." ...

There are various ways to do this. I split attributes into their component parts (based on the David Dunham article in Different Worlds magazine that I mentioned in another thread). This solved the problem for me. ...

(PS. Rick, if you'd like to see a copy of that article by David Dunham, send me your email and I'll forward you a copy.)

Regards. Chris

Hi Chris,
I'm sure that your system would work, but I think that it is too far from old TFT for Steve to use. I would love to see that article, thank you! Email sent.

Warm regards, Rick.

zot · 07-16-2018, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Bofinger

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

Attribute total. (You must have 35+ attributes to buy this. Gamey, but simple.)

So everyone picks up the relevant talent at the same attribute level, and character diversity suffers again. No thanks.

That's not the point. A talent can have an attribute total prereq in addition to other prereqs in order to reserve that talent for more experienced characters. This works really well when a talent shouldn't depend on a particular attribute. Like Theurgy, for example, which is where I came up with the idea. A lot of talents that affect reaction rolls are in this group (Charisma, Bard, Courtly Graces, ...).

Also, you could just as well say that diversity suffers when talents have an IQ level because "everyone picks up the relevant talent at the same IQ level."

Skarg · 07-18-2018, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

Hi Chris,
I'm sure that your system would work, but I think that it is too far from old TFT for Steve to use. I would love to see that article, thank you! Email sent.

Really? It sounded to me like Chris was suggesting a system pretty much the same as your mIQ house rule but called Knowledge instead, which is also very similar to just allowing buying talents with XP, except for details of what you call it and how much XP it costs.

JLV · 07-18-2018, 11:59 AM

That's true Skarg, but Rick has already stated (several times) that he doesn't think his system will ever be adopted by Steve for TFT proper. So he's not being inconsistent here...

Skarg · 07-18-2018, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLV

That's true Skarg, but Rick has already stated (several times) that he doesn't think his system will ever be adopted by Steve for TFT proper. So he's not being inconsistent here...

Maybe not in his own thinking, but Steve did post two versions of a new XP system that let you buy talents over IQ with XP, which is effectively the same thing.

zot · 07-16-2018, 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

Unless I am misremembering, he has had a long running campaign where there are no memory limits, and talents and spells are bought for experience (XP). These costs are high enough that people get new spells / talents slowly. This gets rid of the mIQ economy, but has one killer problem, discussed later.

What about this?

Characters start with IQ points for talents and spells
Characters can only have a number of spells equal to their IQ
Characters can spend XP for more talents (no limitations)

What's that killer problem?

Rick_Smith · 07-16-2018, 04:26 AM

SECOND POINT:

To cast a spell you have to pay it's cost. This cost is measured in fatigue ST (fST) for all spells (except the Death spell which you pay in ST damage).

IMHO these costs are pretty good. Each spell is an independent little package, it gives you a benefit, and the appropriate cost is built in.

But with talents, there is no cost for using the talent. So the old TFT prevented you from buying all of them by the amount of mIQ they took up.

This is weird. Really quite strange. If I learn how to ride a Horse and I'm IQ 10, then I've filled up 1/10 of all I can learn???

It is not the only way to do things. Many RPG's allow you to master many skills. Let us look at Serenity RPG. Given enough time, what stops you from mastering every skill in the game? Nothing. Except time. It take time (a lot of it) to gain the experience to raise these skills from a d4 to a d12. If you are tracking game time, the character would get old and die before all talents were maxed out. And if you are in dangerous adventures, you are very likely to die first.

As a nod to JLV, he has run a TFT game with this mechanic. Steve was thinking about doing this a while ago... I was shocked but got used to the idea. But Steve changed his mind back.

Now TFT (even using this no memory system) is more restrictive than Serenity, because of attribute prerequisites. In TFT, some talents require a high IQ, others a high ST and others a high DX. With the absolute attribute limit, TFT is more restrictive than Serenity - you can't get all TFT talents, in Serenity you could.

But Steve wants to apply an additional cost to talents. What can this cost be?
It can't be fST. So it has to be... ?

-- It could be learning time.
-- It could be XP needed to buy it.
-- It could be prerequisites. (Example the long lines of dull spells in GURPS magic before you get to the cool ones.)

But the key cost for talents is memory.

This is the solution to the killer problem mentioned above. If you have awesome talents, which everyone would like, you need to have a non-trivial cost to keep them exclusive.

Rick_Smith · 07-16-2018, 04:51 AM

THIRD POINT:

The decision to use mIQ as a gate keeper of how many talents you can learn is kind of a strange one, but it can work, so long as you have room to have a good number of talents. People want to eventually get capable characters with a realistic number of talents.

Being a precious resource you need to be able to forget talents you don't want, and other strangeness.

I've written else where that I think that the memory is too short, especially for heroes. Wizards get a decent number of spells. But spells are strange things. Who the heck knows how much room they take up in your mind? Can an IQ 10 person really only learn 10 spells? Why not, who knows? The system worked in the micro game wizard, so Steve used the idea for talents. But in my opinion he made the talents too expensive

Now talents map to skills in the real world. We know highly skilled people who have done multiple jobs, with many skills, & who know several languages. Read biographies of interesting, successful people and then think about what TFT talents should they have.

My opinion is that if talents cost about 1/2 as much as they do in old TFT, things would be better. A long time ago, I decided talents were too expensive, so I reduced their prices. But how do you reduce the price of a 1 point talent like Swimming?

I have 1/2 mIQ talents in my campaign and no one has complained. But Steve really dislikes the idea, so I'll leave it to him to find some solution which works for him.

07-16-2018, 04:21 AM	#2
Chris Rice Join Date: Dec 2017 Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland	Re: Costs of spells and talents - requirements. I agree that I don't want a "memory cap." It's fine as a way of limiting and defining beginning characters but in a long running campaign it should be possible to go beyond these restrictions without necessarily raising IQ. There are various ways to do this. I split attributes into their component parts (based on the David Dunham article in Different Worlds magazine that I mentioned in another thread). This solved the problem for me. Characters could use XP to increase their "Knowledge" stat, allowing them to buy new Talents without changing other attributes. But you could keep the 3 attributes and allow direct purchase of Talents with XP. To me, this is a bit less elegant but does work. As to what the Hero can spend XP on? I agree some advanced combat Talents would be nice, as long as they are well balanced and fit the system. A certain amount of Attribute increase is also fine. But I think Karma/Luck/Fate points would be a useful spend for a Hero. After all what's a Hero without luck: a dead Hero! So I think between extra Talents, Attribute increase and Fate points there will be enough for a Hero to spend XP on. (PS. Rick, if you'd like to see a copy of that article by David Dunham, send me your email and I'll forward you a copy.) Regards. Chris

07-18-2018, 11:59 AM	#6
JLV Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Arizona	Re: Costs of spells and talents - requirements. That's true Skarg, but Rick has already stated (several times) that he doesn't think his system will ever be adopted by Steve for TFT proper. So he's not being inconsistent here...

07-16-2018, 04:26 AM	#9
Rick_Smith Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Coquitlam B.C.	Re: Costs of spells and talents - requirements. SECOND POINT: To cast a spell you have to pay it's cost. This cost is measured in fatigue ST (fST) for all spells (except the Death spell which you pay in ST damage). IMHO these costs are pretty good. Each spell is an independent little package, it gives you a benefit, and the appropriate cost is built in. But with talents, there is no cost for using the talent. So the old TFT prevented you from buying all of them by the amount of mIQ they took up. This is weird. Really quite strange. If I learn how to ride a Horse and I'm IQ 10, then I've filled up 1/10 of all I can learn??? It is not the only way to do things. Many RPG's allow you to master many skills. Let us look at Serenity RPG. Given enough time, what stops you from mastering every skill in the game? Nothing. Except time. It take time (a lot of it) to gain the experience to raise these skills from a d4 to a d12. If you are tracking game time, the character would get old and die before all talents were maxed out. And if you are in dangerous adventures, you are very likely to die first. As a nod to JLV, he has run a TFT game with this mechanic. Steve was thinking about doing this a while ago... I was shocked but got used to the idea. But Steve changed his mind back. Now TFT (even using this no memory system) is more restrictive than Serenity, because of attribute prerequisites. In TFT, some talents require a high IQ, others a high ST and others a high DX. With the absolute attribute limit, TFT is more restrictive than Serenity - you can't get all TFT talents, in Serenity you could. But Steve wants to apply an additional cost to talents. What can this cost be? It can't be fST. So it has to be... ? -- It could be learning time. -- It could be XP needed to buy it. -- It could be prerequisites. (Example the long lines of dull spells in GURPS magic before you get to the cool ones.) But the key cost for talents is memory. This is the solution to the killer problem mentioned above. If you have awesome talents, which everyone would like, you need to have a non-trivial cost to keep them exclusive. Last edited by Rick_Smith; 07-16-2018 at 07:00 AM.

07-16-2018, 04:51 AM	#10
Rick_Smith Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Coquitlam B.C.	Re: Costs of spells and talents - requirements. THIRD POINT: The decision to use mIQ as a gate keeper of how many talents you can learn is kind of a strange one, but it can work, so long as you have room to have a good number of talents. People want to eventually get capable characters with a realistic number of talents. Being a precious resource you need to be able to forget talents you don't want, and other strangeness. I've written else where that I think that the memory is too short, especially for heroes. Wizards get a decent number of spells. But spells are strange things. Who the heck knows how much room they take up in your mind? Can an IQ 10 person really only learn 10 spells? Why not, who knows? The system worked in the micro game wizard, so Steve used the idea for talents. But in my opinion he made the talents too expensive Now talents map to skills in the real world. We know highly skilled people who have done multiple jobs, with many skills, & who know several languages. Read biographies of interesting, successful people and then think about what TFT talents should they have. My opinion is that if talents cost about 1/2 as much as they do in old TFT, things would be better. A long time ago, I decided talents were too expensive, so I reduced their prices. But how do you reduce the price of a 1 point talent like Swimming? I have 1/2 mIQ talents in my campaign and no one has complained. But Steve really dislikes the idea, so I'll leave it to him to find some solution which works for him.