Skarg's Experience Point house rule

[Skarg]

I'm starting a new thread to discuss the Experience Point (EP) house rule a friend TFT GM and I made and used (and liked) circa 1985.

It's designed to solve what we saw as the main problem with the ITL combat EP system, which is that it awards far too much EP for easy kills by superior fighters.

It keeps the EP the same as the ITL system for fair fights, but much less EP is earned for easy fights, and equipment and talents are taken into account.

[Skarg]

Detailed Experience house rules for TFT
=======================================

Each combatant has a calculated Threat Value (TV) determined during character creation (see formula below).

Experience points for defeating an opponent in combat is equal to the twice the TV of the opponent, minus the TV of the character receiving the experience, perhaps with a minimum of 1 or 2 EP.

Therefore:
* If two figures with the same TV fight, the winner receives EP equal to that TV.
* If your TV is less than your opponent's TV, you receive EP equal to the enemy's TV, plus the difference in TV.
* If your TV is more than your opponent's TV, you receive EP equal to the enemy's TV, minus the difference in TV.
* If your TV is double or more your opponent's TV, you receive the minimum EP for defeating them.

Experience for partial damage done or shared can be pro-rated either by math or GM discretion as to fairness.

Threat Value (TV) is calculated as the sum of:
* ST
* AdjDX
* Hits stopped x 2
* Weapon Damage above or below normal for a weapon of your ST (e.g. from magic, fine weapons, etc)
* + 3 for pole weapons
* 1 per spell known
* points spent in special combat talents, i.e.:
Thrown Weapons, Missile Weapons, Fencing, Two Weapons, Unarmed Combat, exotic weapon talents (e.g. Lasso, Whip, Boomerang)
but NOT: Warrior/Veteran, regular weapon talents
* GM may assess TV without using math, in whole or in part.

Examples:
* Two warriors with the same ST + DX fight each other with standard weapons and no armor. The winner will EP equal to ST + DX, as in ITL.
* A fighter has Iron Flesh cast on him, gaining 6 hits stopped per attack. His TV goes up by 12 during the spell.
* Someone using a weapon he doesn't have the talent for is at -4 DX. His TV is at -4 while at that penalty.

Extra explanation:

* Basically every character has a TV. A typical unarmored Melee opponent has TV = (ST + DX) = 24.

* EP = loser's TV x 2, minus victor's TV.

* This gives the same EP as ITL, except it's adjusted by the difference in TV.

* Note that this system gives more EP for the more difficult situations. And it actually nicely gives players a reason not to always use all their magic to overpower opponents.

* Note that it does NOT take into account the difficulty of being outnumbered - the GM may want to apply discretion for all factors that make a situation easier or harder.

* Warrior and Veteran actually do increase TV, but it's taken into account in hits stopped. Ordinary weapon talents are similarly taken into account because if you didn't have them, your AdjDX would be -4.

* Exotic weapon talents do count, because those weapons often have some intangible benefit that otherwise would not be taken into account. In cases where it doesn't, the GM can just assess an adjustment. Similarly, the GM might assess adjustments for bad designs. E.g., someone with DX 8 wearing chainmail might be given a lower TV because his equipment choice is fairly dumb. Adjustments can also be made for circumstances.

* In practice, GM's may want to only do all the math for PC's and special NPCs. Other NPC's may just be given an estimate of TV, if the GM doesn't like doing the detailed math. Basically TV for most fighters is simply ST + DX + armor x 2. It may seem complicated looking at the above list, but it's actually usually very easy to calculate once you get used to it, especially if you do it at the same time you make the character.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

SKARG - Our current TFT:ITL Experience Point Award Rules for Combat is one paragraph in length.

I think that is important.

It can be re-written as one paragraph. It's not rocket science. Only the bold lines above are the rules. The rest is comments/examples. I just pasted the write-up I did for another forum discussion of it in the past, but I thought it looked like a good format to post it in here too.

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

While you have some very sound and worthy concepts included throughout, I was expecting something more along the lines of an actual mathematical formula; simply stated as a variable equation, which would quickly reveal a ratio multiplier with which to equalize the relative value of unequal combatants.

It is a simple formula but it uses addition, not multiplication/division (imagine the complaints from math-averse people if it used division - the horror! ;-) ). In fact, the equasion was listed in the explanation above.

EP = 2 x loser's TV - victor's TV

Those concerned about the math can write both the TV of a character, and 2 x that TV, on the character sheet, so only one subtraction will be needed in play to find the EP to award.

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

Illustrating: If 'A' is valued at 125% of 'B'; and, if 'A' wins the combat, his award is adjusted downward by 80% of the total EP value of 'B'; whereas, if 'B' wins the combat, his award is adjusted upwards by 125% of the total EP value of 'A' - Or something along these basic lines.

Ok, the adjustment is the difference between their TV. So if A is TV 125 and B is TV 100, instead of A getting 100 EP for defeating B, he'd get 75% of that (100 - (125 - 100) = 100 - 25 = 75), which I simplified to give you the above formula, so it's just 2 x 100 - 125 = 75. So in your format:

If 'A' is valued at 125% of 'B'; and, if 'A' wins the combat, his award is adjusted downward by 25% of the total EP value of 'B'; whereas, if 'B' wins the combat, his award is adjusted upwards by 25% of the total EP value of 'A'.

I.e. the difference in EP received (compared to the TV) is equal to the difference between their TV's.

Or, for a real TFT example, using the same percentages you mentioned:

Abe - TV 30
ST 13 Morningstar 2d+1
DX 15 Small Shield (1 hit stopped)

Bob - TV 24
ST 14 2-handed sword 3d-1
DX 10

If Abe defeats Bob, he gets 24 x 2 - 30 = 18 EP (instead of 24 per ITL).
If Bob defeats Abe, he gets 30 x 2 - 24 = 36 EP (instead of 28 per ITL).

In practice, we had a 46-point PC with a TV of IIRC 57, who stopped 9 hits/attack and attacked at DX 16 for 3d+3 damage (or would do sweeping blows...). He basically had to screw up NOT to kill at least one 32-point basic foe each turn, and any who survived had to be able to do 10 damage to even scratch him.

So if he kills one of those, in ITL he'd get 24 EP. In this system, he gets 24 x 2 - 57 = ZERO, or maybe 1 or 2 if the GM thinks there was a risk for some reason. In order to actually merit EP, you have to fight someone with at least half your TV.

And if a 32-point character did manage to defeat him, he'd get 57 x 2 - 24 = 90 EP. In fairness, maybe it should be more, but it's about learning not fairness, and should killing any one foe be worth an attribute increase by itself?

I don't know if it would be helpful for everyone, but although the simplest version of the formula is "EP = 2 x TV1 - TV2", what I tend to find easier for opponents of similar TV is "loser's TV, plus/minus the difference in their TV".

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

HOWEVER, I think many of your ideas of more than worthy of exploration and discussion, but let us look at a few things first - IF you really want to explore this, that is - and the VERY FIRST QUESTION I would want us to answer is:

The current TFT Experience Point Rules for Combat DO NOT account for IQ; therefore, a ST-12 DX-12 IQ-8 Fighter, and a ST-12 DX-12 IQ-12 Fighter - who are NOT equal IF the IQ-12 Fighter is loaded with Combat Talents - and a ST-12 DX-12 IQ-20 Wizard, are each still only worth 24 EPs dead either way.
...
So, that is where I would want to begin the discussion of calibrating the EP Award for Combat: How will we conceptually answer the question of the IQ variable and it relative value for purposes of awarding Combat EP?

IQ by itself usually does nothing for combat threat value, unless you're an illusion(ist). It's the spells and talents that are worth something, which are mentioned in the rule. Usually talents are worth about 1 per memory point if they are useful in combat.

I think the system does pretty well for combat talents, but spells is not ideal. Ideally, you might give a TV to each spell. Lightning is worth maybe 3-5, but Trailtwister and Lock/Knock are worth 0. But that would add tables, which might be good for guidelines, but in practice an experienced GM can just eyeball TV and compare to some known characters. But wizards and fighters are sort of apples and oranges and a "true" TV isn't really possible because combat, especially with magic, is much more complex than comparing two numbers. The idea isn't to get a perfect number but to have a decent number, and GM can overrule or be used instead of math.

The point is to address the problem where tons of EP is available from easy fights.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

... a ST-12 DX-12 IQ-8 Fighter, and a ST-12 DX-12 IQ-12 Fighter - who are NOT equal IF the IQ-12 Fighter is loaded with Combat Talents - and a ST-12 DX-12 IQ-20 Wizard, are each still only worth 24 EPs dead either way. ...

Here's an example of calculating TV for those three cases:

Fighter TV 26
ST 12 Broadsword 2d
DX 12 Small Shield (1 hit stopped) <-- +2 TV
IQ 8
Sword <-- +0 TV
Shield <-- +0 TV

Fighter w. Combat Talents TV 33
ST 12 Crossbow 2d, fires every turn Broadsword 2d
DX 12 (15 w. crossbow) Small Shield (1 hit stopped) <-- +2 TV
IQ 12
Sword <-- +0 TV
Shield <-- +0 TV
Crossbow <-- +0 TV
Missile Weapons <-- +3 TV
Unarmed Combat II <-- +4 TV

Wizard TV 44 (GM might assess more for deadly spells, or if he had zero combat spells, he'd be TV 24 with just the staff to fight with.)
ST 12 Staff of Power 2d
DX 12
IQ 20
20 spells <-- +20 TV

[Jim Kane]

SKARG - Okay, but again, I think before we begin to get into the merits and specific details of your rules, can we address and answer the question regarding the value of IQ in combat first?

Unless we are going to ignore IQ and the value of combat talents for ease of play-abilty, which TFT:ITL does, I think it is most important that we have a method to accurately measure the total independent combat value of the whole combatant first, before we can begin to compare one combatant's relative EP value to another, regardless of the rules which guide us in doing so.

In order to do that, I feel we must answer the question of the IQ variable and the value of the associated combat talents contained therein first and foremost.

The current TFT:ITL rules for factoring the EP value of a figure do not account for the IQ value and the associated combat talents contained therein, therefore, under the current TFT:ITL rules: A 45-point Character with ST-15 DX-15 IQ-15 and NO COMBAT TALENTS has a total EP value of 30; whereas, a 45-point Character with ST-15 DX-15 IQ-15 and MANY COMBAT TALENTS, also has the exact same total EP value of 30.

Do you agree these two figures are equivalent in potential combat effectiveness?
Do you agree these two figures present the same level of potential challenge in combat?
Do you agree these two figures should be worth the same EP award if defeated?

The current TFT:ITL EP rules for combat say they are.

If you do NOT agree with the above, then I say we must address and resolve the value of IQ and the combat talents first - being the only variable between the two fighters - before we can examine the merits of any EP rules set which is designed to to address the problem of: "awards far too much EP for easy kills by superior fighters."

What say you?

JK

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

SKARG - Okay, but again, I think before we begin to get into the merits and specific details of your rules, can we address and answer the question regarding the value of IQ in combat first?

Sure. Though, I think I've already mentioned it several times above, and we did consider that back in 1985, and the above was what we came up with. It's based on having looked at the combat talents and decided that the rules of thumb used in the sytem above were fast and close enough, especially as the GM is expected to use discretional fudging including ad-hoc deductions for unused equipment or skills (i.e. if "Fighter w. Combat Talents TV 33" above doesn't USE his crossbow or Unarmed Combat, which is likely often going to happen, then he should have the same TV for an encounter as Fighter TV 26, and without his shield, TV 24...). And, the GM can also tweak the EP up or down for hard or easy circumstances or fights.

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

Unless we are going to ignore IQ and the value of combat talents for ease of play-abilty, which TFT:ITL does, I think it is most important that we have a method to accurately measure the total independent combat value of the whole combatant first, before we can begin to compare one combatant's relative EP value to another, regardless of the rules which guide us in doing so.

In order to do that, I feel we must answer the question of the IQ variable and the value of the associated combat talents contained therein first and foremost.

Ok, we can go over them in detail. I pretty well remember and even found our original notes on what we were thinking about the talents. They each are valuable in their own ways when used, and some are easy to evaluate (Warrior adds 1 hit stopped), but others not so much (Fencing, Running). We ended up deciding that 1 TV per memory point was roughly right, especially if the GM just tweaks the TV as he sees fit in each case, as opposed to having to consult a table to see Missile Weapons counts for 2.5 TV or something.

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

The current TFT:ITL rules for factoring the EP value of a figure do not account for the IQ value and the associated combat talents contained therein, therefore, under the current TFT:ITL rules: A 45-point Character with ST-15 DX-15 IQ-15 and NO COMBAT TALENTS has a total EP value of 30; whereas, a 45-point Character with ST-15 DX-15 IQ-15 and MANY COMBAT TALENTS, also has the exact same total EP value of 30.

Do you agree these two figures are equivalent in potential combat effectiveness?
Do you agree these two figures present the same level of potential challenge in combat?
Do you agree these two figures should be worth the same EP award if defeated?

The current TFT:ITL EP rules for combat say they are.

No, no & no. If you study what I wrote above, you'll see I clearly agree with you and disagree with ITL EP about combat talents, as I already mentioned I agreed with you on that, the system I posted above does take combat talents into account, as shown in the example calculating the TV of the three characters you mentioned (fighter, fighter w. combat talents, wizard) shows.

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

If you do NOT agree with the above, then I say we must address and resolve the value of IQ and the combat talents first - being the only variable between the two fighters - before we can examine the merits of any EP rules set which is designed to to address the problem of: "awards far too much EP for easy kills by superior fighters."

I think our approach works, which is to start with the ITL system as a basis, so the same EP is awarded as the starting point, and then modify for talents on the same scale.

Here's roughly what we thought:

IQ for its own sake usually is not worth anything unless Disbelieving is involved, or someone has a reason to make an important IQ roll. For the most part it has no effect so no effect on TV. (If someone somehow uses IQ to dominate someone, then that's a situation modifier and/or probably something to reward with EP anyway.)

Plain weapon talents (sword, ax/mace, etc) - the normal baseline expectation for a fighter, so it adjusts the value by zero. If someone DOESN'T have the talent for their weapon, the consequence is -4 DX, so that's worth the TV for that, i.e. -4 TV, but it's not about the talent, it's about the adjDX. TV is ST + adjDX + modifiers.

Peculiar weapon talents, as mentioned in the original post about the system, we didn't want to assess individually since they all offer some special thing or another that are apples & oranges and need to be nerfed anyway, and thought it was ok to just call them 1 TV per memory like the others. If you really wanted to rate the TV of someone abusing lassos and whips as written to be able to take out any character at range, they should be very valuable, maybe add your adjDX again as TV, with additional points for the other perks those tools give.

Warrior and Veteran, as mentioned, add TV equal to the value of the added hits/attack they stop. In practice they're better because they also have no weight, but that seemed more complex than we wanted and below the accuracy level we were going for.

Thrown Weapons we valued at 2 points because it gives +2 DX AND gives the unique ability to throw a weapon the same turn you ready it. In retrospect, maybe 1.5 points but again that's below the grain of our approximate TV system to come up with a perfect number.

Missile Weapons adds 3 DX but only for missile weapons, so might be thought to be worth less that 3 DX points. On the other hand, it tends to mean a dangerous missile user, which tends to be a strong fighter design, so seems worth 3 points anyway, especially since it just lets us write the rule as +1 TV per memory point.

Fencing actually seems worth a bit less than its 3 memory points, except when it pays offs. But people who have it tend to also be powerful anyway, and it makes thematic sense that fighting someone with great weapon skill should just be a better learning experience, so we let it be +3, the value of the memory points (again nicely seeming to be a rule we didn't need exceptions for).

Two Weapons seems usually not worth that much to me unless a powerful character is really taking advantage of it. However it also seems like it would be a good learning experience fighting someone using it, and naturally you wouldn't count it for someone not using the talent in the fight, so again we didn't think there was a reason to not have it be worth 3 TV. Especially since we explicitly mention that ineffective character designs can/should be rated lower TV by the GM.

Running and MA in general we did not give TV for, except in cases where someone wins a fight by running around someone due to higher MA, in which case we'd nudge the TV/EP a couple of points for someone who was getting an advantage due to higher MA.

Unarmed Combat I and II actually don't seem worth their memory unless you're actually using them. They higher ones sort of start to almost seem that value, but certainly are if actually used against other people in bare-hand & HTH situations. So we valued them at memory value for simplicity, but would tend to not count them in practice unless they were actually used in the fight in question.

Horsemanship talents similarly seemed worth about their memory points, but only when the combat was actually on horseback. Again it was pretty natural/easy for us to not count it in their TV except when used mounted, or note it as a separate TV(mounted).

Tactics and Strategist are another apples and oranges sort of thing. The side with an initiative disadvantage probably deserves to earn a few more difficulty EP regardless of who they're fighting, so I would actually give +0 TV to the leader with the talent, but tend to hand out a few extra EP to everyone winning a fight in the difficult circumstance of having an initiative adjustment for good enemy tactics, and/or for having their plans predicted by someone with Tactics.