DEFINING SHIELDS IN TFT - Existing Rules and Extrapolations

[Jim Kane]

DEFINING SHIELDS - EXISTING RULES AND EXTRAPOLATIONS

SHIELD: noun 1. a broad piece of metal, wood, or another suitable material, held by a handle attached on one side, and/or strapped to the arm, and used as a protection against blows or missiles.

SHIELD (1): Ability to use a shield properly.

EXISTING RULES:

(1) The shield talent is an IQ 7 talent.
(2) A figure must have the Shield Talent in order to use a shield properly.
(3) The cost of the Shield Talent is 1 IQ point.
(4) Shields have 3 general sizes: Small -1 hit 0DX, Large -2 hits -1DX, and Tower -3 hits -2DX .
(5) Shields may or may not have outward surface or edge spike(s) for use in charging and against charges.
(6) A figure may shield rush an opponent with his shield.
(7) Shields protect a figures front 3 hexes.
(8) Shields do not offer protection to a figures side-hexes.
(9) Shields do not offer protection from magical attacks.
(10) Shields slung onto a figures back protects a figures rear hex.

Am I missing any stated TFT rules?

EXTRAPOLATIONS

(11) Shields kept ready in the off-hand, ties-up the off-hand, making the figure one-handed for other game purposes.
(12) Carrying a shield leaves only the weapon-hand free to perform tasks such as: holding a rope, or holding a torch.
(13) A figure who attempts other critical non-combat actions while carrying a shield, does so with a DX penalty.
(14) A figure without the shield talent may use two hands hide behind a ST-appropriate shield for basic protection.
(15) A figure without the shield talent who attempts to use a shield in combat does so with a DX penalty.
(16) A figure must spend two turns to ready a shield which is worn on the back.
(17) A figure must spend one turn to sling a shield onto it's back
(18) A figure who is carrying a ready shield IN-HAND during the initial ambush attack from physical missile weapons at distance, presents a relatively smaller target to the ambush party, than the unshielded members of the adventure party; and is at an extra -1DX to hit for small shield, and -2DX for large shield, and -3DX for tower shields - FOR THE INITIAL SALVO ONLY.

Thoughts?

Thanks.

JK

[Dave Crowell]

As the owner of several shields I feel comfortable in saying that you can carry a torch, spare spear or javelin, etc in your shield hand. Lanterns are not very good, the shield casts a huge shadow for one thing. You can't really parry effectively with a shield if you are also using that hand to carry something else. It is awkward but can be done.

I think most RPGs tend to downplay the utility of shields. They are great for blocking attacks, much more so than the 5% of D&D, and can also be used offensively.

One thing that is probably more a factor for role playing adventuring than for arena style combats is that shields are heavy. Carrying a shield for an extended period will tire your arm out. This is a major reason for carrying them slung with a strap instead of on your arm.

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by Dave Crowell

As the owner of several shields I feel comfortable in saying that you can carry a torch, spare spear or javelin, etc in your shield hand. Lanterns are not very good, the shield casts a huge shadow for one thing. You can't really parry effectively with a shield if you are also using that hand to carry something else. It is awkward but can be done.

I think most RPGs tend to downplay the utility of shields. They are great for blocking attacks, much more so than the 5% of D&D, and can also be used offensively.

One thing that is probably more a factor for role playing adventuring than for arena style combats is that shields are heavy. Carrying a shield for an extended period will tire your arm out. This is a major reason for carrying them slung with a strap instead of on your arm.

Thanks for the input Dave! Loved the bit about the problems with shields and lanterns - good stuff to know!

Dave, can you add anything to the list of Extrapolations?

Also, if you would please, as you know about shield in the real-world, could I get your feedback on the optional rule concept I posted on it's own thread about "TURNING" a Defenders Shield?

I'd really appreciate your input and comments there as well.

Thanks Dave

JK

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Dave Crowell

As the owner of several shields I feel comfortable in saying that you can carry a torch, spare spear or javelin, etc in your shield hand. Lanterns are not very good, the shield casts a huge shadow for one thing. You can't really parry effectively with a shield if you are also using that hand to carry something else. It is awkward but can be done.

I create mostly-historically-accurate viking round shields for fun and profit. They're buckler-gripped "medium" shields that weigh about 5-6lbs when made properly.

I'm in Dave's camp here. Check out the Hurstwic site for some fun images of holding to a spare battle axe while using a viking-style shield to full effectiveness, and holding javelins would be similar. I concur as well about lanterns.

I think most RPGs tend to downplay the utility of shields. They are great for blocking attacks, much more so than the 5% of D&D, and can also be used offensively.

A million times this. We consider in class the shield to be our primary weapon. You manipulate the other guy's shield, and a properly-made shield with green or air-dried wood, rift-sawn or rived with an axe from the old-growth wood that will be commonly available in fantasy worlds, is ridiculously springy and robust and will catch and trap a sword blade. You then can twist the shield and take that sword away.

You can bash with them (use the EDGE, not the face, so you maximize your spacing!), grapple with them (trapping your foe's weapon arm and weapon against their body) and strike from behind them.

Plus, they obscure half your body.

+1 or +2 to Armor Class my BUTT. :-)

One thing that is probably more a factor for role playing adventuring than for arena style combats is that shields are heavy. Carrying a shield for an extended period will tire your arm out. This is a major reason for carrying them slung with a strap instead of on your arm.

True, though a caveat: this can depend on the shield. Greek and Roman shields, heavy infantry, were heavy. Viking-style shields were raiding shields, and would probably weigh 4.5-6lbs even for a large one. [Note: that link is there for the pictures. Not trying to sell anything.]

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I create mostly-historically-accurate viking round shields for fun and profit. They're buckler-gripped "medium" shields that weigh about 5-6lbs when made properly.

I'm in Dave's camp here. Check out the Hurstwic site for some fun images of holding to a spare battle axe while using a viking-style shield to full effectiveness, and holding javelins would be similar. I concur as well about lanterns.



A million times this. We consider in class the shield to be our primary weapon. You manipulate the other guy's shield, and a properly-made shield with green or air-dried wood, rift-sawn or rived with an axe from the old-growth wood that will be commonly available in fantasy worlds, is ridiculously springy and robust and will catch and trap a sword blade. You then can twist the shield and take that sword away...
True, though a caveat: this can depend on the shield. Greek and Roman shields, heavy infantry, were heavy. Viking-style shields were raiding shields, and would probably weigh 4.5-6lbs even for a large one. [Note: that link is there for the pictures. Not trying to sell anything.]

Wow, powerful input, thank you Douglas!
I will also ask you if you could/would add anything to the list of Extrapolations; and if you wouldn't mind offering your feedback on the optional rule concept I posted on it's own thread about "TURNING" a Defenders Shield?

I'd really appreciate your input and comments there as well.

Thanks.

JK

[larsdangly]

Agreed with all the good stuff above, which jives with my experiences in the SCA and HEMA.

Runequest was the first game I played where a shield is something other than an afterthought. GURPS probably has the best game treatment of shields that remains playable. I would not be at all bummed out if Steve opted to have shield rules in TFT look more like GURPS...

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

Agreed with all the good stuff above, which jives with my experiences in the SCA and HEMA ... GURPS probably has the best game treatment of shields that remains playable.

Would like to get any adds from you to the list of Extrapolations listed above in the OP - if any came to mind - that you think are playable, if I could; and also, as you have SCA and TFT experience, your thoughts on the TURNING the shield rule concept as well - posted on it's own thread.

Thanks

JK

[ak_aramis]

Originally Posted by Dave Crowell

As the owner of several shields I feel comfortable in saying that you can carry a torch, spare spear or javelin, etc in your shield hand. Lanterns are not very good, the shield casts a huge shadow for one thing. You can't really parry effectively with a shield if you are also using that hand to carry something else. It is awkward but can be done.

I think most RPGs tend to downplay the utility of shields. They are great for blocking attacks, much more so than the 5% of D&D, and can also be used offensively.

One thing that is probably more a factor for role playing adventuring than for arena style combats is that shields are heavy. Carrying a shield for an extended period will tire your arm out. This is a major reason for carrying them slung with a strap instead of on your arm.

With a targe (using near-edge handle and opposite edge strap), I've even fought (SCA Fencing) with a short blade off-hand; it really did allow some very nifty parrying and trapping. (The Tattershall guys found it offensively NPS....) Same for the scabbard off-hand with the Targe.

Now, for the center-held buckler, not so good.

Note that many shields had protective cups over the handle/strap, so in such cases, it's not readily doable.

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by ak_aramis

With a targe (using near-edge handle and opposite edge strap), I've even fought (SCA Fencing) with a short blade off-hand; it really did allow some very nifty parrying and trapping. (The Tattershall guys found it offensively NPS....) Same for the scabbard off-hand with the Targe.

Now, for the center-held buckler, not so good.

Note that many shields had protective cups over the handle/strap, so in such cases, it's not readily doable.

The center-handle shields you mention were the inspiration for a rules proposal I drafted on Turning A Shield (being center-handled, as opposed to edge-handed and strapped) You can read that idea http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=156561 if you might have an interest.

JK

[DouglasCole]

If anyone's interested, I filmed - for my current Kickstarter - a few shots of sparring with viking-style shields and equipment.

https://youtu.be/p5VqmmKhxQ4

Fighting starts 1:16 in. It's semi-choreographed, because I wanted to show certain things. You can see what we call an "overbind" in the first clip, as Dale turns my shield in my hand to expose my sword arm and side. The second cut you can see me using my axe to turn Dale's shield, and then use that opening to strike to the neck. The final is shield-and-spear vs two weapons - a sword and an axe. We did this one a few time, with me trying to hook the spear to control it, but he simply withdraws it and finishes. I don't really try and defend.