Distinguishing Edged Weapons from Hafted Weapons

[tbeard1999]

TFT more or less treats edged weapons and hafted weapons the same. They do about the same damage at given ST levels. In ITL, I think hafted weapons weigh more and cost a little less, but that's it.

For no particular reason, I'd like to tweak the rules so that there are some meaningful differences between edged weapons and hafted weapons. So here's a list of possible tweaks.

1. Reduce hafted weapon damage by 1 point. Classify them as BASHING WEAPONS. Bashing weapons will cause a normal figure to be staggered (i.e. suffer -2 to DX) if the figure takes 5+ hits BEFORE armor is considered. A normal figure will be knocked down if it takes 8+ hits BEFORE armor is considered. The knockdown rule may be too powerful; I haven't playtested it so I don't know. You could change the bash rule so that 8+ damage taken before armor will cause a -4 to DX instead of knocking the target down. Or only allow a -2 DX when the figure takes 5+ points of damage before armor.

2. Perhaps swords generally do more damage, but Hafted Weapons are a little easier to use. Reduce hafted weapon damage by 1 point, but make the Ax/Mace talent only cost 1 IQ point. Alternatively, reduce hafted weapon damage by 1 or 2 points, but allow a +1 DX when using them.

3. Morningstars/flails could be reduced in damage, but allowed to ignore shields.

4. Are hafted weapon shafts more vulnerable to breaking in combat? If so, a 16+ could be a broken ax/mace.

Thoughts? Other suggestions?

[Chris Rice]

I've said before that I like the idea of the "bash." My concern is that the heavier hafted weapons are pretty much guaranteed to cause a knockdown. For instance, even taking 1 point of damage from the battleaxe leaves it 3d6-1 (average 9.5). Perhaps damage should be reduced by 1 point per die. This would make the battleaxe 3d6-3 (average 7.5). The concept is still very appealing to me but I think it needs some work.

[tbeard1999]

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

I've said before that I like the idea of the "bash." My concern is that the heavier hafted weapons are pretty much guaranteed to cause a knockdown. For instance, even taking 1 point of damage from the battleaxe leaves it 3d6-1 (average 9.5). Perhaps damage should be reduced by 1 point per die. This would make the battleaxe 3d6-3 (average 7.5). The concept is still very appealing to me but I think it needs some work.

Yes, I think I agree. Being knocked down in TFT is a big deal.

I don't think it would be unbalancing to make the bash a -2 DX at 5 points of damage and that's it.

I dunno about reducing a 2 handed ST15 battleaxe to the same average damage as a 1 handed ST12 broadsword, though.

[Anthony]

Why lower damage? In general if you're trying to demolish large objects you use a hafted weapon or tool, blades are mostly for things that are relatively hard to hit. That argues for a damage increase and a DX penalty.

[tbeard1999]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Why lower damage? In general if you're trying to demolish large objects you use a hafted weapon or tool, blades are mostly for things that are relatively hard to hit. That argues for a damage increase and a DX penalty.

Well, in GURPS, the ST12 2 handed Greatsword and the ST12 2 handed Great Axe both do +3 damage. But the hatred weapon is unready after each turn, so it will get fewer attacks. Also, cutting damage that penetrates armor is increased by 50%. Bottom line - the Greatsword will do more damage on average.

A ST 10 mace does +2 swinging damage; a ST 10 broadsword does +1 swinging damage. But the broadsword’s damage is cutting damage so it’s increased by 50%. At ST 11, for instance, the mace does 1+1 or 4.5 damage on average. The broadsword does 1d (3.5 puts damage on average), but it will get more attacks and penetrating damage will be increased by 50%. Bottom line - the broadsword will do more damage on average.

Of course, you can treat hafted weapons any way you wish.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by tbeard1999

Well, in GURPS, the ST12 2 handed Greatsword and the ST12 2 handed Great Axe both do +3 damage. But the hatred weapon is unready after each turn, so it will get fewer attacks. Also, cutting damage that penetrates armor is increased by 50%. Bottom line - the Greatsword will do more damage on average.

I'm not sure why you're quoting GURPS, but (a) the great axe was increased to Sw+4 damage in Low Tech, and (b) no, the greatsword doesn't do more damage, it hits more often.

[Kirk]

Originally Posted by tbeard1999

TFT more or less treats edged weapons and hafted weapons the same. They do about the same damage at given ST levels. In ITL, I think hafted weapons weigh more and cost a little less, but that's it.

For no particular reason, I'd like to tweak the rules so that there are some meaningful differences between edged weapons and hafted weapons. So here's a list of possible tweaks.

1. Reduce hafted weapon damage by 1 point. Classify them as BASHING WEAPONS. Bashing weapons will cause a normal figure to be staggered (i.e. suffer -2 to DX) if the figure takes 5+ hits BEFORE armor is considered. A normal figure will be knocked down if it takes 8+ hits BEFORE armor is considered. The knockdown rule may be too powerful; I haven't playtested it so I don't know. You could change the bash rule so that 8+ damage taken before armor will cause a -4 to DX instead of knocking the target down. Or only allow a -2 DX when the figure takes 5+ points of damage before armor.

2. Perhaps swords generally do more damage, but Hafted Weapons are a little easier to use. Reduce hafted weapon damage by 1 point, but make the Ax/Mace talent only cost 1 IQ point. Alternatively, reduce hafted weapon damage by 1 or 2 points, but allow a +1 DX when using them.

3. Morningstars/flails could be reduced in damage, but allowed to ignore shields.

4. Are hafted weapon shafts more vulnerable to breaking in combat? If so, a 16+ could be a broken ax/mace.

Thoughts? Other suggestions?

My thoughts would be don't mess with it, play GURPS if you want more detailed combat. Differences between swords and axes are somewhat built into the damage table. Most axes have a damage curve that has a higher minimum and a lower maximum, whereas swords give you more min and max.

Off the top of my head, if I remember correctly, shortsword is 2-1 and small axe is 1+2. So for the sword, a "wider" bell curve, the axe, more "narrow" flat results. You might get an 11 or a 2 with a sword, with varying chances, but with the axe, no less than 3 nor more than 8 and an even chance across the way. The sword has an average hit value of 6, and the axe 5.5.

[tbeard1999]

Originally Posted by Kirk

My thoughts would be don't mess with it, play GURPS if you want more detailed combat. Differences between swords and axes are somewhat built into the damage table. Most axes have a damage curve that has a higher minimum and a lower maximum, whereas swords give you more min and max.

Then don’t use any of these rules. But as the purpose of this thread is to explore ways to distinguish hafted and edged weapons, I think I’ll continue.

Also, your assertion about the damage curves is mostly incorrect. The hatchet, mace, morningstar, military pick do the exact same damage as their sword counterparts of the same ST. A ST15 battleaxe uses the same 3d6 bell curve that ST14 Two Handed Swords, ST16 Greatswords and ST13 2 handed Bastard Swords use. At ST 8,the club does exactly the same damage as a dagger.

Only the hammer, small axe and great axe have higher minimums and lower maximums than their edged weapon counterparts. That’s only 3 of the 9 hafted weapons.

And there’s no particular rhyme or reason as to why these weapons use different probability curves. The hatchet, small axe, great axe and battleaxe are all axes, but some use bell curves, while others use single die linear probabilities. The club, mace and hammer are bashing weapons, but the mace uses a 2d bell curve and the other two use 1 die linear probabilities.

[Kirk]

Originally Posted by tbeard1999

Then don’t use any of these rules. But as the purpose of this thread is to explore ways to distinguish hafted and edged weapons, I think I’ll continue.

Also, your assertion about the damage curves is mostly incorrect. The hatchet, mace, morningstar, military pick do the exact same damage as their sword counterparts of the same ST. A ST15 battleaxe uses the same 3d6 bell curve that ST14 Two Handed Swords, ST16 Greatswords and ST13 2 handed Bastard Swords use. At ST 8,the club does exactly the same damage as a dagger.

Only the hammer, small axe and great axe have higher minimums and lower maximums than their edged weapon counterparts. That’s only 3 of the 9 hafted weapons.

And there’s no particular rhyme or reason as to why these weapons use different probability curves. The hatchet, small axe, great axe and battleaxe are all axes, but some use bell curves, while others use single die linear probabilities. The club, mace and hammer are bashing weapons, but the mace uses a 2d bell curve and the other two use 1 die linear probabilities.

Right, I didn't say all, but the axes tend to have flatter curves with different mins and maxes, probably an attempt to differentiate the types of damage between swords and axes as reasonably as possible keeping things simple with one type of die and simple additions and subtraction.

Swords, more variable, axes more regular. There is only so much Steve could do working with d6 within the context of the game to keep it simple and well-done. And part of the design fun is deciding between 1+2 vs. 2-1, for instance, regardless of what name is attached to the weapon.

It's great to make up all kinds of variations on damage potential, armor slopes, kung fu movements, weapon balance, materials, etc. along the lines of GURPS or other games, but all of it makes for lengthier PC creation, longer engagements, etc. etc. which isn't TFT. And the best thing about TFT is use of the bell curve with the simple and ancient d6, it was the best decision Steve made to stay away from D&Dish yuck.

I used to joke with D&D guys who wouldn't open their minds to a possibly better system and feign interest in their bag o' dice.

"Yeah, I've got d100, d200, d20, d3, everything! Sometimes it takes 5 minutes just to find the right dice for a roll! And the flat odds, it's so cool when the chances of something rare happening are just the same as the mundane. Mimics the natural world perfectly and feels so right. Oh, and there are those d2 and d1 dice I thought I had lost!."

"d2 and d1 dice, whaaaaat?"

I then would pull out a coin and a marble to show them. :)

[tbeard1999]

Originally Posted by Kirk

Right, I didn't say all, but the axes tend to have flatter curves with different mins and maxes, probably an attempt to differentiate the types of damage between swords and axes as reasonably as possible keeping things simple with one type of die and simple additions and subtraction.

You said "most axes" (and presumably you meant the entire ax/mace clas of weapon since the whole discussion is about them).

As noted, only 3 of the 9 axes/maces have higher minimum and lower maximum damage than equivalent swords. 3 of 9 is not "most" of course.

And hafted weapons don't tend to have flatter curves. 5 of the 9 hafted weapons use multiple d6s with bell curves. 2 of them are ST 9- weapons and all weapons in that ST class use a single die. Only 2 of the hafted weapons use a single die at a ST level where equivalent swords use 2 dice.

Swords, more variable, axes more regular.

3 of 9 hafted weapons use a single die. The rest use bell curves. 2 of 10 swords use a single die. The overwhelming majority of both classes of weapon use a bell curve.

I really don’t think there’s any pattern here.

It's great to make up all kinds of variations on damage potential, armor slopes, kung fu movements, weapon balance, materials, etc. along the lines of GURPS or other games, but all of it makes for lengthier PC creation, longer engagements, etc. etc. which isn't TFT.

I don’t think anyone has advocated any solutions that aren’t very simple.

If you don't want to make any tweaks to TFT, that is of course your prerogative. I disagree. Currently, there's little meaningful difference between hafted weapons and edged weapons. If a few simple tweaks can add meaningful distinctions without slowing the game down or unbalancing it, I'm interested.

Oh, and while I don’t care to get into a discussion about it, I don’t think there’s anything innately superior about a bell curve, compared with a linear probabilities.