False god idea

[b-dog]

I was thinking about a temple idea for PCs to face that would be different than the typical demonic temple. The idea is that there is a false god (likely a demon but not overtly evil) who bestows power just like a normal god. This god uses mana to power his clerics instead of unholy Sanctity that would easily be observed and likely rejected by good and neutral people.The worshippers would not be evil either they might even think they are good. The false god can bestow mana to heal wounds, heal the sick and so on just like a normal cleric of a god can do. But of course there is a catch. The false god may deny powers to clerics when they really need and they must bargain with their soul to be able to perform the magic that they desire. After the bargain the cleric to the false god detects as evil and usually he is hidden away and acts more as a defense to the temple instead of a cleric.

The idea is that the temple does not detect as evil and protection from evil doers not counter powers of clerics of the false god who have not made a bargain and the worshippers will defend their temple even though they might even be good people.

[b-dog]

False god adventure idea:

There is a demonic temple that is growing in power and acquiring evil races like orcs, trolls, ogres, goblins, hobgoblins and giants along with evil men. Luckily a religious group has moved nearby to thwart the evil from the demonic temple. They have set up a temple in a nearby town and now the local people are following their religion. If the PCs try to attack the demonic temple then the clerics of the religious movement will be willing to heal them or cure them of disease or whatever. If the PCs are able to bring down them demonic temple then it will allow the false god of the religious movement to be free of his rival demon lord enemy. Now the false god will try to have his followers convert the PCs to his religion but if they refuse then they will be targeted for assassination by the evil clerics in service to the false god.

[DocRailgun]

Isn't a being that can bestow power like a normal god more or less a god? Isn't a cleric of any god more or less bargaining with their soul anyway?

Originally Posted by b-dog

I was thinking about a temple idea for PCs to face that would be different than the typical demonic temple. The idea is that there is a false god (likely a demon but not overtly evil) who bestows power just like a normal god. This god uses mana to power his clerics instead of unholy Sanctity that would easily be observed and likely rejected by good and neutral people.The worshippers would not be evil either they might even think they are good. The false god can bestow mana to heal wounds, heal the sick and so on just like a normal cleric of a god can do. But of course there is a catch. The false god may deny powers to clerics when they really need and they must bargain with their soul to be able to perform the magic that they desire. After the bargain the cleric to the false god detects as evil and usually he is hidden away and acts more as a defense to the temple instead of a cleric.

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by DocRailgun

Isn't a being that can bestow power like a normal god more or less a god? Isn't a cleric of any god more or less bargaining with their soul anyway?

The way I envision it to be different is that the false god pretends to be something that he is not. He grants mana to cast spells that would normally work with Sanctity in order to disguise his true nature. But at one point thefalse god will reveal the truth that he is really a demon and at that point to cleric must decide whether or not to accept the bargain. If the person accepts then the false god lays claim on their soul. From then on the clerics spells are powered by unholy Sanctity. The false god makes the bargain when the cleric is in desperate need.

From a game mechanic standpoint you are right though.

[Dalin]

Originally Posted by DocRailgun

Isn't a being that can bestow power like a normal god more or less a god? Isn't a cleric of any god more or less bargaining with their soul anyway?

I'm curious about this, too. If this being is powerful enough to grant spell-like powers to an arbitrary number of followers at an arbitrary distance, I'm not sure that the real/false god distinction means much.

If the idea is to have a temple that the delvers oppose but that won't count as "evil," there may be simpler solutions. Depending on your world-building assumptions, there could be many deities that don't count as good or evil. You could reserve the "evil" label for the worst of the lot... truly vile gods that are out for nothing that most average people would approve of. The rest, however, could easily have all sorts of rivalries (philosophical, political, familial, etc.)*, some of which could turn violent. This could easily allow for your adventure idea where the delvers defeat an evil cult only to inadvertently enhance a temple that they don't much care for**.

* I'm having fun imagining a god with prim morals around sexuality and alcohol and another who is more hedonistic, all for wild orgies and wine. I don't expect their followers will get along very well, but neither sounds "evil" according to the standard RPG formula. If one started encroaching too much on the other's territory, I could see them coming to blows.

** In the real world, of course, most cultures rapidly label as "evil" groups that they come into violent conflict with. This makes it much easier to kill your enemies. RPGs with categorical definitions of good and evil require some squinting and handwaving.

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by Dalin

I'm curious about this, too. If this being is powerful enough to grant spell-like powers to an arbitrary number of followers at an arbitrary distance, I'm not sure that the real/false god distinction means much.

If the idea is to have a temple that the delvers oppose but that won't count as "evil," there may be simpler solutions. Depending on your world-building assumptions, there could be many deities that don't count as good or evil. You could reserve the "evil" label for the worst of the lot... truly vile gods that are out for nothing that most average people would approve of. The rest, however, could easily have all sorts of rivalries (philosophical, political, familial, etc.)*, some of which could turn violent. This could easily allow for your adventure idea where the delvers defeat an evil cult only to inadvertently enhance a temple that they don't much care for**.

* I'm having fun imagining a god with prim morals around sexuality and alcohol and another who is more hedonistic, all for wild orgies and wine. I don't expect their followers will get along very well, but neither sounds "evil" according to the standard RPG formula. If one started encroaching too much on the other's territory, I could see them coming to blows.

** In the real world, of course, most cultures rapidly label as "evil" groups that they come into violent conflict with. This makes it much easier to kill your enemies. RPGs with categorical definitions of good and evil require some squinting and handwaving.

The false god dupes good people into worshipping him. He is not a god but a demon who bestows powers. The Divine has banished him to Hell so he is not of the same power as the Divine thus a false god.

[rkbrown419]

It's GURPS rather than purely DFRPG but GURPS Thaumatology had a section on spirit assisted magic that might be useful for this idea.

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by rkbrown419

It's GURPS rather than purely DFRPG but GURPS Thaumatology had a section on spirit assisted magic that might be useful for this idea.

Thanks. I was sort of thinking that the false god was a demon lord whose s brick was the ability to grant neutral powers by mana to his clerics to mimic holy clerical powers. When the time comes he corrupts his good servants and they join the Infernal.

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by DocRailgun

Isn't a cleric of any god more or less bargaining with their soul anyway?

Devotion of the soul isn't the same thing than bargaining with it. In the first case there's an element of "truth" which is missing in the second. In this latter dynamics, the results would be ultimately harmful to the soul.

Originally Posted by Dalin

I'm curious about this, too. If this being is powerful enough to grant spell-like powers to an arbitrary number of followers at an arbitrary distance, I'm not sure that the real/false god distinction means much.

Demons can grow in power depending on the circumstances, opening the possibility of taking a "false god" role for deceiving purposes.

In brief, the idea here looks to me like a "Power of Evil" presenting itself as a "Power of Good". Framed in this way the distinction can be meaningful, it depends on the agenda of the entity and its importance in the campaign. In the Midnight campaign setting, there's at least a situation having Izrador as an example of this:

Originally Posted by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midnight_(role-playing_game)#Night_Kings

One of the humans was a priest that always wanted a god's blessing; his name was Sunulael. Over weeks and months, the Shadow took his mind by slowly convincing him through dreams that the Shadow was truly a god and wished Sunulael to serve him. At last (. . .) agreed and was corrupted.

Originally Posted by rkbrown419

It's GURPS rather than purely DFRPG but GURPS Thaumatology had a section on spirit assisted magic that might be useful for this idea.

I agree it can be interesting to have intermediate spirits —psychic entities—, feigning to be gods —spiritual entities. Even if the outward effects of the bestowed healing magic (for instance) looks legit and miraculous, the inner source of the phenomenon can be other than divine, other than "Good".

[tanksoldier]

Originally Posted by b-dog

The false god dupes good people into worshipping him. He is not a god but a demon who bestows powers. The Divine has banished him to Hell so he is not of the same power as the Divine thus a false god.

A less-powerful god is a demi-god.

Gods vary in power in almost all pantheons and game systems.

If your demi-god has enough mana to grant his followers powers, spells and the like the technicality that he's granting mana instead of sanctity is a pretty fine line. I mean, what is sanctity anyway besides mana granted to specific people by a specific powerful being?

If you limited the distance that it could be granted, or the number of people or the amount (old school DnD only let demi-gods grant up to 3rd level spells to their worshipers) or perhaps if he was able to bestow Magery and give magical training... making his priests really mages... maybe.

The problem is that the cult members become damned and the false god takes their souls so good PCs will try to destroy the temples of false gods for this reason

What does being "damned" imply? Are the souls destroyed? Do they go somewhere else that others don't? Is it unpleasant there?

If worshipers don't KNOW what is happening to them that's one thing but few if any mythologies that involve selling souls allow the daemon/devil/Satan to lie about exactly what's happening. It has to be a free and willing choice or the bargain is invalid.

...which is no different than evil gods sending their worshipers to their evil, unpleasant afterlife. They trade power or pleasure in this life for misery in the next. They KNOW they worship the god of feeding people into woodchippers. It's what they expect. Heroes oppose such cults because of the harm they do in THIS life, not really because their worshipers get what's coming to them.

...and some evil gods reward their deceased worshipers as well as any good deity, maybe better. Sometimes the reward varies.
Perhaps if you were especially evil instead of being fed to a woodchipper for all eternity you get to do the feeding.

I don't really see a difference... UNLESS the worshipers are somehow unwitting victims. That could be interesting but probably wouldn't involve souls... maybe drain of the life energy of worshipers as a ritual under the guise of the "good god" and doing evil things with it?