Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming

[vicky_molokh]

Greetings, all!

Sure, lots of game settings have clerics and believers, but very often that is little more than just another dressing for the very concrete things which are fully supported by evidence. It doesn't take faith to rely on the favour of the Deity Of War when said god regularly casts pillars of flame at the request of its high priests.

Conversely, there are a few games which seem to make a point of ensuring that faith is supposed to be faith, and not something that is concrete/provable. They tend to have traits like "Faith. 10 points cost. Your character has a belief in a higher power. It's up to your GM to decide whether this ever makes any sort of difference in the game or not."

In a less mechanistic, more fluffy example, it has been recently pointed out to me that while Mage the Ascension is a game in which Ascension plays a major role, the books provide no (or very little) evidence that Ascension is in fact achievable. Which, IMHO, is totally compatible with the themes of MtA, since MtA is a game where belief/faith also plays a major role, and is in fact the source of immense power.

Finally, there's the case of characters who have faith in campaigns where the players have been clearly told that the setting does not include supernatural elements. In this case, it's purely a matter of roleplaying. I consider this case not as interesting as the previous two, because it doesn't require/encourage having faith, only roleplaying it.

What role does faith play in your games? What's your stance on these three, or perhaps on other related, cases of involving faith in the RPGaming process and why?

Thanks in advance to all who answer!

[whswhs]

I think in GURPS terms what you're talking about seems a lot like a Delusion, worth negative points. If faith makes no difference in the game, it's no more than a zero point feature, and it would then be something you roleplay because you choose to.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I think in GURPS terms what you're talking about seems a lot like a Delusion, worth negative points. If faith makes no difference in the game, it's no more than a zero point feature, and it would then be something you roleplay because you choose to.

A Feature (or Delusion) would be similar to the third case I described. But I'm more interested in the first two cases, i.e. where there is no [conclusive] evidence that would [reliably] confirm or deny the hypothesis that a supernatural power (or equivalent) to has an effect on the natural world.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

A Feature (or Delusion) would be similar to the third case I described. But I'm more interested in the first two cases, i.e. where there is no [conclusive] evidence that would [reliably] confirm or deny the hypothesis that a supernatural power (or equivalent) to has an effect on the natural world.

The thing is that this, and similar stuff like the perpetual how to make magic "mysterious" argument, does not work very well in a game.

A game needs rules, and if there are any differences in effects between characters for them, you need to tell the players at least the outline of those rules when they are opting in or out of them in order for them to be fair.

"This trait it may or may not do something" either cheats everybody who took it (or didn't), or it has a fair cost, and if it has a fair cost, it's automatically relatively apparent if it will have much effect or not.

[Ransom]

I've played a character who was a devout christian in a grimdark historical fantasy setting. He had no supernatural advantages but his faith served as a justification to make him rather minmaxed to fit the "martyr" stereotype - absurdly hard to kill or intimidate, with strong social skills, but insignificant in a fight and almost pathologically selfless and naive.

That was fun for me because I am the method actor/tactician type of player. My fun isn't particularly tied to my character's success in absolute terms, and I enjoy the challenge of overcoming handicaps more than the glory of being the most effective member of the party.

If you want faith to have concrete game mechanical effects while still capturing the feel of genuine faith, you want to use subtle mechanics like rerolls or serendipitous coincidences, or things like GURPS's higher purpose and daredevil advantages, where the faithful can't count on any particular concrete effect but just do better across the board when acting according to their faith.

[Anthony]

I'm not sure what distinction you're making between 'having' faith and 'roleplaying' faith. In general, if 'faith' has a meaning, its effects can be either direct (if you have faith, you get plusses) or indirect (if you have faith, certain entities react differently towards you). Note that faith can have indirect effects even if there are no supernatural forces associated with it (entirely mundane entities might still care about your faith), it's just that supernatural entities often have supernatural means of detecting your faith.

However, if you're charging points for faith, it should have reasonably defined concrete effects. Even if the only concrete effect is "you detect as faithful".

[kirbwarrior]

The earlier answer; No one in my gaming group enjoys faith or religion in roleplaying. It usually leaves a bad taste in their mouth. And I usually find it mostly boring, when the main two results always end up "No, your god doesn't exist" or "Your god is the antagonist". I do blame a small amount of this on newer fiction in general, where people tend to use faith to justify evil.

The newer answer; Recently a couple of my players and I have been trying to 'reapproach' religion and faith for roleplaying. My most recent example is where I am a player with a fierce fanaticism to a goddess, but not the church, something she is yet unaware of. What's incredible is how much 'dumb luck' seems to happen to her, especially after praying. In a meta sense, my GM is as baffled as me at the timing of good rolls, but it only gives my character more 'evidence' in the divine.

To compare, when faith and religion aren't the same (where worship gives workable benefits such as powers), it's slightly less bad for my players, but realistically that style of religion just lines up better with 'spiritual magic' than 'religious gifts', even if the fluff is different.

EDIT: I use GURPS mostly. Using meta traits like Luck and Destiny works well because even though the player knows the mechanical effects, the character does not. However, some people don't like there being such a contrast of player/character knowledge.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

In a less mechanistic, more fluffy example, it has been recently pointed out to me that while Mage the Ascension is a game in which Ascension plays a major role, the books provide no (or very little) evidence that Ascension is in fact achievable.

In Mage how could you know Ascension was real even if you experienced it? :) "Is this real?" questions are why I starting ignoring Mage almost as soon as I heard of it.

I'm about to start playing a Pathfinder Cleric again. Idunno Szralic Cleric of Desna, Lady of the Stars. Idunno definitely thinks the Lady of the stars is real because he talks to her when he's outside at night. He thinks She answers him too.

Members of any organized religion based around Her may be a little dubious. Idunno doesn't do "organized" very well. Somebody/Something is giving him magic powers but I don't need to know if She is real even in game terms.

Is that even close to what you are asking (if you even have a question in there somewhere)?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

In Mage how could you know Ascension was real even if you experienced it? :) "Is this real?" questions are why I starting ignoring Mage almost as soon as I heard of it.

Such questions seem to be the reason why MtA is quite relevant to the exploration of faith.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

I'm about to start playing a Pathfinder Cleric again. Idunno Szralic Cleric of Desna, Lady of the Stars. Idunno definitely thinks the Lady of the stars is real because he talks to her when he's outside at night. He thinks She answers him too.

Members of any organized religion based around Her may be a little dubious. Idunno doesn't do "organized" very well. Somebody/Something is giving him magic powers but I don't need to know if She is real even in game terms.

Is that even close to what you are asking (if you even have a question in there somewhere)?

That seems somewhat related and somewhat not. Notably, a Pathfinder (or D&D, for that matter) Cleric seems to be only vaguely related to matters of faith because in those settings, evidence exists that confirms the reality of divine and supernatural powers.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Such questions seem to be the reason why MtA is quite relevant to the exploration of faith.


That seems somewhat related and somewhat not. Notably, a Pathfinder (or D&D, for that matter) Cleric seems to be only vaguely related to matters of faith because in those settings, evidence exists that confirms the reality of divine and supernatural powers.

Idunno doesn't believe because he gets stuff and he didn't become a Cleric so he could get stuff. He experienced a spontaneous epiphany around the campfire one night. All the stuff is just because the Lady of the Stars is generous.

_His_ faith is absolute. Mine is irrelevant.