When to use Observation skill and not Perception roll?

[Maz]

You need 4 poitns in the Observation skill for it to be more effecient than your normal Percaption and so my players quikly decided that it was better to just have a high Perception than any points in Observation.

I can't really figure out when to make them do Observation checks and when to make them do Perception checks.

So when do you require Obeservation, and when is Perception enough?

[thona]

I would say perception is for SEEING something, Observation for actually working with the data and making sense out of it.

With perception you may be able to see the enemies, with observation you will be a lot better in telling the distance (for an artillery strike), or making out how many there are.

Perception: You see something in the woods on the other end of the valley.
Observation: In the woods on the other end of the valley there seems to be an ambush. You would say there are about two dozen men. The tholw thing does not lead to riders, but on the left it looks like a good position for some archers.

More details.

[Chorpa]

This example is how I have interpreted the rules:

You sit in a bar and roll a successful Perception: You notice a lone man sitting in a booth.

After observing the man (succesful Observation-roll): You notice the man having a metal suitcase.

Maybe followed up by a succesful Body Language roll: You notice he is nervously guarding the suitcase.

This is how I handle the difference between Perception and Observation. You roll Perception roll to notice something you was not aware of.

Observation you roll to gather further information of something you are aware of. This is often followed by an appropiate skill to interpret the information you gather with Observation.

Also from what I understand if you have a higher Observation than Perception you can use Observation instead of Perception.

[Phil Masters]

Perception is seeing (or hearing, smelling, tasting, or feeling) stuff. Observation is doing so over an extended period, without making it obvious that you're looking (so there's a small element of stealth or acting involved), and pre-processing the data in a useful fashion.

It's a skill for undercover cops, facts-on-the-ground spies, highly professional bank robbers, military scouts, and investigative reporters. (While Per is the characteristic of the pet dog or cat, as much as anything.) Anyone can walk past a bank and notice, with a Per roll, that it's got armed guards; a good Per roll will say how many there were at that moment, and maybe let a character with some knowledge of guns spot what they're packing. Observation skill lets you sit in the cafe opposite with a newspaper, looking like somebody who's waiting for a friend or just killing time - and come back with a fair idea of the guards' duty schedule, patrol route, and state of alertness, all neatly tied up with a ribbon to hand off to the rest of the team.

[Luther]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

Perception is seeing (or hearing, smelling, tasting, or feeling) stuff. Observation is doing so over an extended period, without making it obvious that you're looking (so there's a small element of stealth or acting involved), and pre-processing the data in a useful fashion.

It's a skill for undercover cops, facts-on-the-ground spies, highly professional bank robbers, military scouts, and investigative reporters. (While Per is the characteristic of the pet dog or cat, as much as anything.) Anyone can walk past a bank and notice, with a Per roll, that it's got armed guards; a good Per roll will say how many there were at that moment, and maybe let a character with some knowledge of guns spot what they're packing. Observation skill lets you sit in the cafe opposite with a newspaper, looking like somebody who's waiting for a friend or just killing time - and come back with a fair idea of the guards' duty schedule, patrol route, and state of alertness, all neatly tied up with a ribbon to hand off to the rest of the team.

Good resume Phil. Worth quoting.

[kure]

Hi,
I thought that Observation skill work against skills like camouflage, stealth, shadowing.
And it not!!
We used this skill completely wrong. :o(

So this skill not helps you to Sense (notice) something, but it is good for figure out, what it means.

[Phil Masters]

Originally Posted by kure

Hi,
I thought that Observation skill work against skills like camouflage, stealth, shadowing.
And it not!!

Well, it could at times. Say you're running observation on a public place, and somebody who's passing is being shadowed; that might well end up as an Observation vs. Shadowing contest. Any time the other skill is being used to fog attempts at assessment, it could be Quick Context time.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by kure

I thought that Observation skill work against skills like camouflage, stealth, shadowing.
And it not!!

Observation can work that way -- it's just that it can do other things, too. Watching an area or a group for a time to determine its purpose and secrets includes noticing which bits are camouflaged, who's hiding in the shadows, etc. Normally, such skills as Camouflage, Stealth, and Shadowing go up against straight Perception because, usually, those skills are applied tactically and the "victim" (so to speak) isn't actively scanning the area for an extended period. However, a soldier, guard, spy, or detective doing nothing but watching the area has a better chance of noticing items and people that have been deliberately concealed. In effect, if his Observation skill is greater than his Per, he gets a bonus for applying trained technique.

Thus, there are effectively two distinct uses of Observation:

1. Roll against the higher of Observation or Perception in any Contest against a stealth or concealment skill such as Camouflage, Shadowing, or Stealth, and to notice Filch, Pickpocket, or Sleight of Hand attempts. This is the "tactical" use of Observation.

2. Roll against Observation (default: Per-5) to gather intelligence for later analysis with Intelligence Analysis, typically to avoid penalties for unprepared breaking and entering, military action with Strategy or Tactics, etc. This is the "strategic" use of Observation.

In essence, the uses in the first category are a "perk" for being expert at the second category.

[Maz]

thona, but when do you use either? Or do you jsut chose before you roll? Or do you think like Chorpa, that you first use one, then the other?

Chorpa, So you always have to roll twice, doesn't this become a bit much?

And yes, you can use the higher of the the two, but for 10 poitns you can either have 12 per or Observartion 11. For 20 poitns you can have Per 14 or Observation 15.
And Percaption covers all the other senses as well. It's not worth buying observation unless you sometimes need it.

[Mehmet]

From what I've gathered,

Player spots something, GM secretly rolls PER,
Player examines an area and wishes to spot something, again GM secretly rolls PER,
Player examines an area to gather information - not to spot the guards but to see how they behave, their shifts etc - again GM secretly rolls against PER-5 or the mighty high observation skill the player has instead of default :)

Cheers...