What kinds of firearms would people start making [After the End]?

[phayman53]

I asked a question on this thread about firearm prices post-apocalypse that got me wondering more about what kinds of firearms people would start making a generation or two after the kind of civilization shattering events described in [AtE 1 and 2]. My question is only tangentially related to the one in that thread, so I decided to ask it in a different place.

The [AtE] line assumes that people would initially stabilize at about TL4 in terms of what kinds of new equipment groups could responsibly produce after a civilization ending catastrophe. So what kinds of firearms do you think people would start predominantly making at this point? Do you think they would make muzzle loaded rifles, or would they start with breech loading designs? Would anyone bother with smooth bore muskets, or would rifles with minie balls immediately be re-adopted? What about more complex designs, like the first cap lock revolvers--potentially usable in rifles (I would assume), but definitely TL5 tech? This is not a criticism of [AtE], it is a world-building question for trying to make a plausible, consistent feeling setting using the [AtE] rules where people are again making firearms with some regularity.

Some considerations behind my question:

Breech loading rifles were invented very early (TL4 according to [LT]), but never really caught on until much later. My basic understanding is that it was difficult at TL4 and 5 (and therefore expensive?) to make a breech loading rifle with a strong enough seal to not occasionally fail when firing, so the benefit of much faster loading did not outweigh the risks and cost. Would such a drawback continue in a post-apocalyptic TL4 situation given that people would know, at least in theory, that it is possible and preferable to make a reliable breech loader?

What about cap-lock revolvers verses single-shot? Would it be too difficult to regularly make weapons with tight enough tolerances to be a revolver, or would they be a fairly common newly manufactured style of firearm?

Lastly, what about cartridge bullets? Is it really that difficult to cast casings with tight enough tolerances and strength to work in a pistol or rifle, or would an essentially TL4 gun smith be able to do it relatively consistently given that the idea has already been invented?

I look forward to people's thoughts!

[phayman53]

Originally Posted by phayman53

Lastly, what about cartridge bullets? Is it really that difficult to cast casings with tight enough tolerances and strength to work in a pistol or rifle, or would an essentially TL4 gun smith be able to do it relatively consistently given that the idea has already been invented?

Well, I found an answer to one part of my question. Apparently it really is almost impossible to make bullet casings without some sophisticated processes or a lot of time and waste. It seems that they are not cast, but instead are either repeatedly pressure stamped and annealed or turned on a lathe (which is time consuming and wasteful). I guess using surviving brass or cartridgeless methods such as muzzle loaders, caplock revolvers, etc. would be the order of the day until civilization can be somewhat rebuilt to a higher base TL.

[ericthered]

I suspect the most common item will be improvised hand cannon made by rubes who don't know much beyond how to weld and how to make simple explosives. These will probably have matchlock style firing mechanisms.

Real gunsmiths will probably make TL 5 stuff (still muzzleloaders), and I suspect you'll see a lot of civil war type stuff with miniballs, percussion caps, and so forth.

Remember the tech in ATE isn't actually TL4 -- that's wealth level and what a wander can keep in use.

[(E)]

Originally Posted by ericthered

I suspect the most common item will be improvised hand cannon made by rubes who don't know much beyond how to weld and how to make simple explosives. These will probably have matchlock style firing mechanisms.

(SNIP)

Remember the tech in ATE isn't actually TL4 -- that's wealth level and what a wander can keep in use.

I was thinking along the same lines, but rather than match lock the ignition system may have been electric or piezoelectric or at least in enough cases to make life interesting for the PCs.

[Fred Brackin]

[QUOTE=phayman53;2001195 So what kinds of firearms do you think people would start predominantly making at this point? [/QUOTE]

Rifles with minie balls are possible, though precise rifling with homemade tools would be a challenge.

Caplock anythings require primers. Primers require a certain of precision while working with a fussy and toxic high explosive and will be difficult. you basically have to make a machine (even if hand-powered) that will automatically place the right amount of explosive in a bit of copper sheeting and form that into a primer.

Anything done with cartridges basically requires primers too.

Flintlock revolvers are possibly but work dubiously and are seldom seen before tL5 anyway.

A lot of your questions boil down to "If people are limited to TL4 why don't they just do TL5 stuff instead?" and the answers amount to "If they could they'd be TL5."..

[phayman53]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

A lot of your questions boil down to "If people are limited to TL4 why don't they just do TL5 stuff instead?" and the answers amount to "If they could they'd be TL5."..

Well, my first, and main, questions were really about breech loaders and rifles versus muskets, which all are TL4. I asked the other questions more as a conceptual afterthought on what would be possible with TL4 tool manufacturing capabilities but with higher tech concept already know to be possible and preferable. For instance, black powder does not really require other TL3 methods and technology to make, but nobody really discovered it until then historically, so we call it TL3 in GURPS (same goes for 3 field farming and later methods of crop rotation, germ theory, basic vaccination, etc). Conversly, computer circuit boards require a bunch of other TL7 tech to make possible, so they cannot be made without a large technological base. So I was wondering, really, how large a technological base certain kinds of firearms require versus the accident of when the idea was historically thought of.

[jason taylor]

A number of people worked with breechloaders. But no one could get a model working people were satisfied with. So just because a concept exists doesn't mean someone will get it right or that an attempt to put it into practice will be accepted.

[mlangsdorf]

For my game, I'm going with the assumption that most villages can produce rifled muzzleloaders firing minie balls with black powder: that's all straight TL4 tech (except for the minie balls, which are obvious once you hear about them) and doesn't require a gunsmith who can work at fine tolerances. Rifled black powder weapons are at least as good as crossbows, and a lot easier to learn to fire than bows. There's also a fair number of muzzle loading black powder cannon, and at least some interrupted thread screw breech guns (which aren't that much harder to make, if you have access to asbestos for the obduration ring, but are somewhat more accurate and easier to fire. Warships would definitely want them).

Towns and wealthy villages make single or double shot breach loaders: there's lot of different ways to do that, from trapdoor rilfes to Alvin conversions of the muzzleloaders. Some people are even making manual action rifles and shotguns with magazines, though they're comparatively rare: there's more moving parts, you need to be able to make stronger springs for the magazines, and not everyone can do that. Same with fully recuperating carriages for field cannon: too much hassle for not a lot of benefit.

I'd expect commonly used technology to top out around that level. A pump shotgun based on a Remington 870 pattern is a pretty versatile gun: you can load it with rifled slugs for accuracy or buckshot for close range firepower or birdshot for hunting birds from turkeys to doves. It's a manual action, it's easy to recover your brass, and you can load it with black powder if you need to.

A semi-automatic rifle is objectively a better gun, but it's harder to make and much harder to make ammunition for, so most people don't bother. It's clearly better to have all 50 members of a village militia armed with knock-off Spencer or Martini-Henry rifles than to have 10 guys armed with Garands: sure the Garands have a better rate of fire per gun, but they lose out in overall weight of fire, and more guys can cover more locations and absorb more casualties.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by phayman53

. For instance, black powder does not really require other TL3 methods and technology to make, but nobody really discovered it until then historically, so we call it TL3 in GURPS (same goes for 3 field farming and later methods of crop rotation, germ theory, basic vaccination, etc). Conversly, computer circuit boards require a bunch of other TL7 tech to make possible, so they cannot be made without a large technological base. .

That you believe the above reflects your knowledge base.

There are actually many fiddly little things required to turn powdered saltpeter, charcoal and sulphur into even serpentine powder much less the advanced blackpowder that historically went with the minie ball era..

As a simple example even though you can find saltpeter crystals under manure piles what you get that way will be too wet to use without extensive drying and I don't know how that works on any sort of detailed basis. It'd probably require weeks or even moths of experimentation to find out.

Charcoal burning was once reckoned a skilled profession too. There's large quantities of practical experience that has to back up theoretical knowledge.

If you want a high tech magic trick where little more than knowledge is needed the Heimlich maneuver might be your best bet. Turning natural petroleum into a jellied incendiary that you can probably call "Greek fire" might be your next best bet. Making powder and guns will require skilled hands and not just a head full of knowledge.

[phayman53]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

That you believe the above reflects your knowledge base.

First of all, I never said any of this would be easy or automatic, I was asking about what would be possible for people with primarily TL4 capabilities in machines, power, and tools to do with legacy TL8 knowledge of what is possible, the theories on how to do it, and even some practical expertise--as well as academic values like scientific experimentation that did not exist at historic TL4. I was not asking about day 1, year 1, or even decade 1 after the apocalypse, but rather a generation or more--after things had stabilized to some degree (as is the assumption in AtE).

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

There are actually many fiddly little things required to turn powdered saltpeter, charcoal and sulphur into even serpentine powder much less the advanced blackpowder that historically went with the minie ball era..

As a simple example even though you can find saltpeter crystals under manure piles what you get that way will be too wet to use without extensive drying and I don't know how that works on any sort of detailed basis. It'd probably require weeks or even moths of experimentation to find out.

Charcoal burning was once reckoned a skilled profession too. There's large quantities of practical experience that has to back up theoretical knowledge.

Except that you are forgetting that there will be people who survive the civilization killing disaster that will know how to make black powder (and many other things) to a much greater degree than we on this forum do. LT pg. 85 points out how relatively easy it is to make black powder, even before TL 3, it says, "The major problem is curiosity: an interest in picking up saltpeter crystals in the first place, purifying them, and mixing them with other substances." Assuming you know to do this, it only requires, in GURPS terms, a Chemistry or Explosives (Fireworks) roll at +4, which indicates that the authors of LT thought it would be relatively routine for someone with these skills. Some survivors of the apocalypse would definitely know the formula for black powder and how to make it (though maybe not with LT tools), so they would have an incentive to experiment on the process with the tools at hand given how useful firearms and explosives are for long-term survival in a hostile environment, especially when there are human (and/or non-human) hostiles. There are also gunsmiths who would survive (with their tools and knowledge), some of whom work on black powder weapons.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

If you want a high tech magic trick where little more than knowledge is needed the Heimlich maneuver might be your best bet. Turning natural petroleum into a jellied incendiary that you can probably call "Greek fire" might be your next best bet. Making powder and guns will require skilled hands and not just a head full of knowledge.

There are many other things where head knowledge really is the biggest obstacle. Take Mendelian genetics and scientific cross-breading--that would definitely be useful and is post TL4. The farming examples I discussed do not really rely on higher technology, they rely more on human experience over time alongside some experimentation. Understanding human anatomy and physiology, disease processes, and other things would be helpful even without advanced medical tools and drugs. Boat designs, even for wooden boats, have come a long way and rely heavily on experimentation and practical physics knowledge for both hydro and aerodynamics and do not necessarily require advanced tools.

This is not to say it would not require work or experimentation to put the theoretical (or practical, but higher tech) knowledge to use with TL4ish infrastructure. Rather, what I am saying is that, given that people know what sorts of things to try and what the payoff will be, there should be higher tech things that are likely to be produced within this society that is an odd mix of TL4ish infrastructure but TL8ish knowledge. What I am less sure of is what those things are (specifically for firearms, since this is an RPG), and what technologies really do require total build-ups of technology to support them (such as the obvious example of modern computers).

It seems from other people's answers that muzzle loaders will probably be likely, some of them rifles and some of them muskets. Breech loaders are not out of the question, but are problematic given the difficulties of strong seals. Things like lever actions, revolvers, and bolt actions are more difficult and therefore unlikely except in communities that managed to salvage or preserve, and then maintain, an unusual level of infrastructure.