Cosmic Questions

[Purple Snit]

I'm working on some characters using the Cosmic Advantage [basically Demigods in a mortal world], and I had a few questions on how the advantage works.

1. Cosmic Mind Control vs. a mortal - does the Cosmic overcome the will roll and automatically affect the victim, or does it just bypass any non-Cosmic mental defences the target may have?
2. An ordinary M-16 with AP ammo vs. Cosmic DR - does the DR block all the damage, or just the damage up to its value as usual, but ignoring the non-Cosmic AP effect? [e.g. Cosmic DR 10, damage rolled is 18 pi [2], does 8 get through, or nothing because Cosmic DR ignores non-Cosmic damage?]
3. If someone with Cosmic on their ST score hits something with non-Cosmic DR, do they ignore the DR, and just go straight to damaging the HP?

More questions might come up as I work on this, but I should be able to extrapolate from these examples for most stuff. Thanks in advance.

Edit: Yes, I mean the Enhancement [p. B103].

[Phantasm]

I'm going to assume you mean the Cosmic enhancement on advantages, as that seems to come through in the context.

Originally Posted by Purple Snit

1. Cosmic Mind Control vs. a mortal - does the Cosmic overcome the will roll and automatically affect the victim, or does it just bypass any non-Cosmic mental defences the target may have?

If it's the +50% version from the Basic Set, I would say it bypasses the non-cosmic mental defenses, but still permits the Will roll to resist. However, if you use the +300% No Defense Roll Required version from Powers and Power-Ups 4: Enhancements, then it will bypass the Will roll. The latter is much more powerful, hence the larger price tag.

2. An ordinary M-16 with AP ammo vs. Cosmic DR - does the DR block all the damage, or just the damage up to its value as usual, but ignoring the non-Cosmic AP effect? [e.g. Cosmic DR 10, damage rolled is 18 pi [2], does 8 get through, or nothing because Cosmic DR ignores non-Cosmic damage?]

To be honest, I'm not sure what the higher levels of "Cosmic" enhancement on DR would do, except permit the DR act against Cosmic attacks, which is the domain of the +50% version. To prevent the AP affect, you'll want a level or two of Hardened on the DR, which is cheaper than Cosmic. Even Cosmic DR does not block all damage regardless - there is no fair price for that! - just reduces the damage taken.

3. If someone with Cosmic on their ST score hits something with non-Cosmic DR, do they ignore the DR, and just go straight to damaging the HP?

The +300% "Irresistible Attack" version of the Cosmic enhancement on attacks - including bare-handed ST attacks - does indeed by the RAW bypass DR. Note that the +50% Cosmic on DR counters the +300% Irresistible Attack, forcing the attack and DR to interact normally.

Cosmic is given a four page breakdown in Power-Ups 4: Enhancements, with various flavors in the +50%, +100%, and +300% values. I'd certainly get it and read through it.

Hope this helps.

[Purple Snit]

Thanks for that - I will read the material in Power-Ups, and see if it answers what I need to know!

[Ternas]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

If it's the +50% version from the Basic Set, I would say it bypasses the non-cosmic mental defenses, but still permits the Will roll to resist. However, if you use the +300% No Defense Roll Required version from Powers and Power-Ups 4: Enhancements, then it will bypass the Will roll. The latter is much more powerful, hence the larger price tag.

Actually there is no enhancement, even in Cosmic, that will bypass a roll to resist. It explicitly says so in the Cosmic basic description in Power-Ups 4: Enhancements on page 6 and reinforced on page 8 in the description of Irresistible Attack. I believe you may have mixed it up with No Active Defense Allowed and No Die Roll Required.

The latter ensures success if there's any chance to hit and specifically says that it can be used for attack rolls but not for ones that require margin of success such as a resistance roll.

The former only disallows active defenses: blocks, parries, and dodges.


Therefore Cosmic Mind Control is only able to bypass any non-cosmic defenses such as Mind Shield while any Cosmic Mind Shield will protect the target as normal.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

If it's the +50% version from the Basic Set, I would say it bypasses the non-cosmic mental defenses, but still permits the Will roll to resist. However, if you use the +300% No Defense Roll Required version from Powers and Power-Ups 4: Enhancements, then it will bypass the Will roll. The latter is much more powerful, hence the larger price tag.

No, that's all completely wrong. You need the full +300% Irrestible Attack to bypass non-cosmic mental defense. Nothing can bypass the basic Will roll.

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by Ternas

I believe you may have mixed it up with No Active Defense Allowed and No Die Roll Required.

Entirely possilbe. I didn't actually have PU4 open when crafting my reply like I should have. *sheepish look*

Originally Posted by whswhs

No, that's all completely wrong. You need the full +300% Irrestible Attack to bypass non-cosmic mental defense. Nothing can bypass the basic Will roll.

So noted. Thanks.

Note to the OP: I've been known to be wrong about minute details like this in the past. My bad!

(To be fair, I almost never deal with Cosmic except for NDRR and Irresistible Attack, and then never with mental abilities, only physical attacks/resistances.)

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Purple Snit

I'm working on some characters using the Cosmic Advantage [basically Demigods in a mortal world], and I had a few questions on how the advantage works.

1. Cosmic Mind Control vs. a mortal - does the Cosmic overcome the will roll and automatically affect the victim, or does it just bypass any non-Cosmic mental defences the target may have?
2. An ordinary M-16 with AP ammo vs. Cosmic DR - does the DR block all the damage, or just the damage up to its value as usual, but ignoring the non-Cosmic AP effect? [e.g. Cosmic DR 10, damage rolled is 18 pi [2], does 8 get through, or nothing because Cosmic DR ignores non-Cosmic damage?]
3. If someone with Cosmic on their ST score hits something with non-Cosmic DR, do they ignore the DR, and just go straight to damaging the HP?

Mind Control (Cosmic, Irresistible Attack, +300%) would pay no attention to Mind Shield or to Resistance/Immunity to Mind Control. But nothing takes away the basic roll vs. Will.

What Cosmic DR does is to modify penetration. An attack can have an armor divisor of "ignores DR" (a form of Irresistible Attack), 100, 10, 5, 3, 2, or 1. Ordinary Hardened 1 reduces divisor (2) to (1), (3) to (2), (5) to (3), (10) to (5), and "ignores DR" to (100). Higher levels of Hardened reduce it by more steps. DR (Cosmic, Defense, +50%) basically wipes out all forms of penetration; even an Irresistible Attack that would normally go right through DR like a bullet through intergalactic vacuum faces cannot ignore this kind of DR, but faces its full DR value.

You really cannot put Cosmic onto ST, or directly onto any other stat. Instead you put it onto the dice of damage for an attack with your ST. See p. 146 of GURPS Powers. If, for example, your thr damage is 1d, you start from its cost as crushing damage (5 points); apply Cosmic, Irresistible Attack, +300% to get a total of 20 points; and then subtract the original 5 points to get 15 points. Now your unarmed blows inflict damage that completely ignores any DR that doesn't have Hardened at some level.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Purple Snit

1. Cosmic Mind Control vs. a mortal - does the Cosmic overcome the will roll and automatically affect the victim, or does it just bypass any non-Cosmic mental defences the target may have?

No effect in GURPS ever overcomes a resistance roll because its an absolute effect and GURPS doesn't do absolute effects. (but see this post from this thread where I stated up Kirlgrave's Mind Control power from Marvel's Jessica Jones.) That said, if you really wanted to be able to have someone fully at your beck and call you'd need something like "Affliction 21 (Disadvantage, Extreme Fantasicism, +15%; Malediction 2, +150%; Secondary Disadvantage, Slave Mentality, +8%) [574]".

Originally Posted by Purple Snit

2. An ordinary M-16 with AP ammo vs. Cosmic DR - does the DR block all the damage, or just the damage up to its value as usual, but ignoring the non-Cosmic AP effect? [e.g. Cosmic DR 10, damage rolled is 18 pi [2], does 8 get through, or nothing because Cosmic DR ignores non-Cosmic damage?]

DR modified with Cosmic works just like normal DR - if your damage exceeds the value, it gets through.

Originally Posted by Purple Snit

3. If someone with Cosmic on their ST score hits something with non-Cosmic DR, do they ignore the DR, and just go straight to damaging the HP?

Not quite. In order to make your attacks Cosmic you must figure your highest damage as if it were a crushing attack (5 points per die of damage). Then add whatever modifiers you want to that point value to figure the sub cost. Finally, subtract the base cost from the previous value to determine the cost. Notate this as "Modified ST-Based Damage (Modifier, +X%) [X]". So if you had ST 22 and wanted to ignore your target's non-Cosmic protections you'd have "Modified ST-Based Damage (Cosmic, Irresistible Attack, +300%) [60]".

[PK]

Originally Posted by Purple Snit

I'm working on some characters using the Cosmic Advantage [basically Demigods in a mortal world], and I had a few questions on how the advantage works.

I strongly recommend checking out GURPS Power-Ups 4: Enhancements, which has an entire section (basically a sub-chapter) on the Cosmic enhancement, what it can and cannot do, and how every existing version of it works (in detail).

1. Cosmic Mind Control vs. a mortal - does the Cosmic overcome the will roll and automatically affect the victim, or does it just bypass any non-Cosmic mental defences the target may have?

The latter. Mind Control (Cosmic, Irresistible attack, +300%) ignores every non-Cosmic defense against Mind Control that the victim has -- including Mind Shield and Immunity to Mind Control -- but the victim still gets a Will roll to resist.

2. An ordinary M-16 with AP ammo vs. Cosmic DR - does the DR block all the damage, or just the damage up to its value as usual, but ignoring the non-Cosmic AP effect? [e.g. Cosmic DR 10, damage rolled is 18 pi [2], does 8 get through, or nothing because Cosmic DR ignores non-Cosmic damage?]

DR (Cosmic, Defense, +50%) simply protects against attacks with (Cosmic, Irresistible attack, +300%). To offset Armor Divisor, you'd want to add Hardened to DR.

3. If someone with Cosmic on their ST score hits something with non-Cosmic DR, do they ignore the DR, and just go straight to damaging the HP?

You can't add Cosmic directly to ST -- but you can use the rules for modifying your ST-based damage from GURPS Power-Ups 4: Enhancements. If you use those rules to add Cosmic, Irresistible attack (+300%) to your punches, then yes, you ignore non-Cosmic DR.

[Ternas]

Originally Posted by PK

You can't add Cosmic directly to ST -- but you can use the rules for modifying your ST-based damage from GURPS Power-Ups 4: Enhancements. If you use those rules to add Cosmic, Irresistible attack (+300%) to your punches, then yes, you ignore non-Cosmic DR.

I'm seeing this answer a lot in this thread, and this makes me curious if there would be any issues with putting Cosmic enhancements on Strikers or Natural Weapons (From the Pyramid 3-65 issue.) and still have the same basic effect as modifying ST based damage, with less calculations needed that is.

((EDIT))
After a bit of thinking I now realize that the answer could be fairly obvious, but in my defense it's very early in the morning here and my brain is half dead here from getting ready to run a DF session in about an hour.