2X Miniatures

[Magesmiley]

I recently backed a Kickstarter which featured N Scale Car Combat miniatures. This is roughly 2X Classic scale, which is the scale currently being considered for 6E.

The figures were in two pieces (chassis and body) and included sprues of weapons and accessories. There were mount points on the chassis and body figures for the weapons.

Over the weekend I did some work on assembling mine. And I want to share some of what I found with everyone.

Biggest conclusion: weapon bits are a real bad idea for 2X scale cars. This isn't a case of bad design for the figures - the weapons and their mounting points were done in a pretty good way. However, they were really tough to get glued in the right positions due to their small size and weight. Even with some needle nose pliers. I do a lot of work with miniatures, and I suspect that if I was having trouble, it would be even worse for people new to it.

Secondly, at 2X scale, weapons are going to be fairly thin and subject to snapping off if they stick out too much. Leading to repairs and more glue.

As a result of this, I'm going to very strongly advocate that if 6E does miniatures, that weapons be cast as part of the cars rather than as bits to add on.

The casting of the chassis and body separate worked pretty well - they weren't hard to assemble and added some variety. At 2x, these pieces are big enough to work with easily.

I'd advocate if 6E does miniatures, that they be cast in multiple, interchangeable pieces to increase variety. (The chassis and body separate, and possibly multiple pieces for the body).

The figures by the way are great. Despite the troubles, I will finish assembling them and, after painting, I'll mount them as well (I've got some clear acrylic bases from Litko already). If you're looking for 2X miniatures, these are some of the better ones out there (I've also got some architectural figures from Howard Models - the 1/10 ones are about right).

Finally, I'd suggest SJG might consider the figures' creator (the Mega Miniatures line was his, so he has a fair bit of experience) if they are considering miniatures for 6E - he has some insight and practice at making cars at the scale being considered, as well as a good Kickstarter track record with miniatures.

[ElLoboGordo]

Those do look super-fiddly. I eagerly await your work-in-progress shots, though. :)

[Racer]

II can see the possibility of one piece models being produced by 3-D type printers in near future . Click on BBC News 24 showed new 3-D printer innovations at a technology show : using two materials - one of which is washed away at end of process - 'impossible' designs can be created . On this scale 'one piece' models with rolling wheels , movable guns , revolving turrets , opening doors & even retractable wheel guards are all achievable .
While I enjoy modelling , as it's been stated , on smaller scales can be an absolute nightmare on fiddly parts ! From long experience with Battle Fleet Gothic ship's rams , antennae and adornments ; it's far easier to start with one item and to add/modify it , than to start with multiple small parts & 'hope' you get them 95%+ okay and/or in right place ...

The latter is what lead to the notorious 'humpbacked' look of a vast majority of Vengeance types of Grand Cruiser models in BFG . Many bought on eBay have to have all the glue dissolved off the metal & rebuilt by pinning , before the even start to look right ...

[ph423r]

Originally Posted by Racer

II can see the possibility of one piece models being produced by 3-D type printers in near future . Click on BBC News 24 showed new 3-D printer innovations at a technology show : using two materials - one of which is washed away at end of process - 'impossible' designs can be created . On this scale 'one piece' models with rolling wheels , movable guns , revolving turrets , opening doors & even retractable wheel guards are all achievable.

Do you mean each mini is going to be 3-D printed, or that it's going to be used to make mold masters? I get that the enthusiasm for 3-D printers is high, but it feels like people keep trying to shove them into rolls they wouldn't really be good at. This seems like one of those cases.

Outside of making a master, or prototypes I don't really see how using a 3-D printer to produce mini's would be better for a company than using traditional mold techniques. I might just not be seeing it myself, but the only case I see a production run being 3-D printed is if the run is so small that the molds would cost more than they would make off the minis. Though considering the cost of plastic injection molds I could maybe see that being an option).

One issue is the amount of time it would take to produce each batch of minis. The casting route will likely have more setup time especially if we're assuming the 3-D printers are in house, but I still don't see how a printer would beat them on time compared to any of the usual casting materials, resin, pewter, or plastic even this would likely have the longest setup time due to needing the specially milled molds, but once you have them you can produce a high volume quickly.

Another big issue would be cost vs. quality. If we're talking about extrusion printing then while the cost in material probably wouldn't be bad I don't think the detail they give without extra work after the print is there yet. Also in my experience at least they can be very finicky. Which would mean even with someone babysitting the machines you would probably end up with a lot of wasted time and plastic. If the plan is the laser sintering then the detail isn't your issue, but the time still is, and the cost is definitely. The machines themselves tend to be on the expensive side, and from my experience the material isn't exactly cheap either.

Not to keep harping, but I wonder if the moving parts would be a good idea. Not so much on the turrets since a magnet and a pin vise can get you that on current minis. The wheels might be cool, but if you're using a system that uses bases then you lose that plus, and a bumped table would become a terrible thing if the minis could roll freely. Getting them to stay on slopes would be an even bigger pain. The door and wheel guards just scream easily chipped paint to me. It would also make the mini more fragile, fiddly, and a pain to paint. It's my personal experience, but some stickytack to hold the part in place and some CA accelerator to speed up drying time take a lot of the fiddlyness out of assembly, and most of my experience comes from putting together the 6mm Battletech minis which can get very fiddly at times.

[ammulder]

It would be like a dream to punch up a design for your next duel and then print out a miniature for it.

But my experience with a consumer-type 3D printer is that you have to make the weapons obscenely large relative to the vehicle scale (even for 3x cars) to not just chip off with the slightest abuse.

Until the state of the art advances somewhat, this probably means home-printed miniatures need to stay kind of abstract instead of accurately reflecting the outward appearance of a given design. That is, even if you can front-mount 3 FTs or 6 MGs in the game, or slip a MD and FOJ under the back bumper together, it would be mighty tricky to home-print a model of those kind of things which is both visually sane and reasonably sturdy.

Anyway, back to the original topic, I understand that the miniatures from the kickstarter in the original post are or are going on sale to non-backers too...

[schoon]

So, forgive my ignorance here, but I didn't know that 2x was under consideration for 6E.

How solid is that, and what other scales are they considering?