Chi Power Limitation: Rituals = Missed Sleep?

[Pseudonym]

So, something that kinda bugs me: it says that someone with Chi Mastery is going to spend the time for rituals by missing sleep. It's just a fact that the time for their daily rituals comes out of sleep the way the rules are written. Unless I misunderstand, it sounds like succumbing to exhaustion from sleep deprivation is inevitable, if not immediately, then in some days.

I believe my interpretation might be over-literal (and it precludes someone who might have bought enough levels of less sleep or the no sleep advantage that they *can't* miss enough sleep,) but I wanted to do a sanity check. Is it fair to allow a martial artist to sleep a full night then do his rituals in the morning? Is it fair to let her do her rituals on the move if you have something like a cart she can ride in while praying? Is the inevitable cyclic crashes intentional? Is it fair to let someone buy less sleep to offset this missed sleep penalty, and expect that the rituals will use up the extra slack from extra waking hours first before cutting into sleep time? Is it expected that a martial artist is trying to catch naps whenever he can to recover sleep deprivation fatigue?

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Pseudonym

Chi Mastery... It's just a fact that the time for their daily rituals comes out of sleep the way the rules are written.

Not quite. While spelling out details for the Disciplines of Faith necessary to keep your Chi Power, sleep is one example of things you might be doing that you have sacrifice. The text is:

Originally Posted by DF1 p21

Each day, roll 1d; this is how many hours less he has for sleep, standing watch, etc... {also needs mystic stuff} ... or if he fails to sacrifice the necessary time...

Notice the "standing watch" and "etc"; it's an open-ended list. Your rituals take 1d hours, the "necessary time" you must "sacrifice". Therefore, you have 1d fewer hours for anything else you might want to do in the day, including sleep, or standing watch, or (etc) eating, research, scouting, etc. If you always choose to skip sleep without any compensating Advantages, then you will indeed wind up with a problem eventually.

I'd say it's up to the GM whether you can do your meditation while riding in a cart. Might be a good time to call for a skill roll with a distraction modifier (failure meaning you still have to make up the time later). "Exercises" seem less plausible in a cart, but that depends on what they are. (Slapping bowls of water, repeatedly bumping your head with a board...) The main reason I'd be tempted to allow it is the purely practical meta reason that I can see it irritating a lot of groups to no end to have the chi warrior always slowing down their travel.

[mlangsdorf]

In my DF games, Rituals have only rarely been a problem. People are rarely in a dungeon for 5+ hours a day, so there's usually plenty of time to get a full night's sleep and perform rituals. The big problem is when people are on the roads and pushing hard to get somewhere: 12 hours of sleep (in three watches of 8 hours each) plus 5 hours of rituals means there is only 7 hours of marching.

It's a moderately limiting disadvantage, especially when I started charging for meditation incense. A small fee, but it added up. Seems suitable for 10 points.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

In my DF games, Rituals have only rarely been a problem. People are rarely in a dungeon for 5+ hours a day, so there's usually plenty of time to get a full night's sleep and perform rituals. The big problem is when people are on the roads and pushing hard to get somewhere: 12 hours of sleep (in three watches of 8 hours each) plus 5 hours of rituals means there is only 7 hours of marching.

It's a moderately limiting disadvantage, especially when I started charging for meditation incense. A small fee, but it added up. Seems suitable for 10 points.

1d leads to 3-4 hours more often than 5. And, uh, 12 hours of sleep? What sorts of disadvantages did your entire party agree to take there?

[Joe]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

And, uh, 12 hours of sleep? What sorts of disadvantages did your entire party agree to take there?

Note the part in three watches. If your goal is to get a full 8 hours of sleep for everyone in the group, without exception, and you still want to post watches, then the whole group has to rest for more than 8 hours, so that those watching can have time for sleep.

I suspect the three watches he's thinking of run something like this:

Watch 1: Character A watches for 4 hours. Characters B and C sleep.
Watch 2: Character B watches for 4 hours. Characters A and C sleep.
Watch 3: Character C watches for 4 hours. Character A and B sleep.

Or similar. Larger parties have more options. In any case, using this kind of method, everyone gets 8 hours, and someone is on watch the whole time. (In passing: I'd hate to be character B in this example: it sucks to be the one to have interrupted, rather than continuous, sleep).

Ok, that's quite enough derailing from me. I'm enjoying the discussion of Ritualism and its effects - please continue!

[Pseudonym]

Originally Posted by Joe

Note the part in three watches. If your goal is to get a full 8 hours of sleep for everyone in the group, without exception, and you still want to post watches, then the whole group has to rest for more than 8 hours, so that those watching can have time for sleep.

I think the point is that... I can't remember exactly where I read it, but I feel like it is in How To Be A GM, and maybe Dungeon Fantasy 2, For whatever hand-wavy reason, staked watches aren't considered to lose sleep.

Keeping on topic of Rituals then, what do people do with the -5 point version? I had a cleric in a campaign just recently where I got to play instead of GM for the first time; there was no mechanical explanation of it, so I just decided to make a big deal of praying at meals, before going to bed, when waking up, and explicitly performing funerary rites for downed enemies, even if time was precious... though the last one sounds almost like a specially mutated and refluffed version of trademark (always performs a polite ceremony accessibility: only in fatal interactions) I roleplayed as an old guy on the verge of retirement, so in character my guy would boss around the big strong and 80-year young dwarf barbarian (we decided to give dwarves super huge lifespans for no apparently important reason as setting background, so 80 years was approximately the maturity of young adult) and he'd resent me back when I told him to do the digging; I'm too old for that.
"You're thirty years younger than me!"

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Joe

Watch 1: Character A watches for 4 hours. Characters B and C sleep.
Watch 2: Character B watches for 4 hours. Characters A and C sleep.
Watch 3: Character C watches for 4 hours. Character A and B sleep.

(In passing: I'd hate to be character B in this example: it sucks to be the one to have interrupted, rather than continuous, sleep).

One gets used to it. After doing that long enough you get used to sleeping in 4 hour blocks and will awaken after 4 even if you're on a straight 8 shift. You get a drink, go the bathroom, get a smoke, whatever and go back to sleep for 3 1/2 more hours.

[thulben]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

The big problem is when people are on the roads and pushing hard to get somewhere: 12 hours of sleep (in three watches of 8 hours each) plus 5 hours of rituals means there is only 7 hours of marching.

That can provide dramatic tension. Do you forgo the rituals in the name of speed? The universe may well depend you getting there in the nick of time!

[T.K.]

I believe your better solution for this is use your good ol hand-wave here:

The chores/meditation/whatever are there for lore, fluff and balance for having to spend time doing that and all.

I believe you should make it as inconvenient as it suits your setting. Do you use a heavy setting on different religions and sects and it's heavily emphasized by your beliefs, doings and such?
Is it just another option between a myriad of others, like magic, psionics, powers and so much hassle would hinder it more than sparkle it apart?

There's a breaking point between "Awesome... I see the carriage is somewhat small, but enough for me to do my stretchings and prayers, focusing my mind and strenghtning my body once again! Please, don't interrupt me unless we're attacked!" and "Godammit Bob, we gotta stop in the middle of the goddamn swamp of doom and gloom to wait you do your goddamn babblings...again!? And all that just to kick stuff harder!! Really, c'mon now...why didn't you make a normal fighter with a sword and board or something...sigh"

Finding the middle ground, whatever it is for your game, should be best

[Pseudonym]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Notice the "standing watch" and "etc"; it's an open-ended list.

Ah, etc. Good ol' etc. And kinda agreeing with the maybe distraction rolls for the travelling. I read Chi Rituals as "meditation" but never thought of it as exercise, though that also makes sense. Doing maybe an IQ based meditation roll for the prayer/meditation part and a DX based meditation roll for exercise and/or stretching might be a compromise if the transportation suits either or both (eg, a largeish boat where it is big enough to allow the exercise portion) Failure at one or the other means it is too bumpy and he is distracted or unbalanced, and might need to land...

Sounds a bit too much dice rolling for a DF game, but might work for a less DF-ish game. For Dungeon Fantasy on the other hand, might just want one or the other picked by how the GM is feeling is appropriate.

But yeah, the day of the actual dungeon crawl, time is probably rarely an important constraint... unless you have vampires that are really screwing with the planet rotation to throw off day and night cycles.