Poker, Black Jack, Baccarat, etc.

[otghand]

Would card games such as Poker, Black Jack, Baccarat, or other card games typically played for money be the Gambling skill or separate Games skills? How about other gambling games such as Backgammon?

[johndallman]

There's a comprehensive article about poker under GURPS in Pyramid #3/59: Conspiracies.

[otghand]

Not one I have. What is the gist of it as relates to my question?

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by otghand

Not one I have. What is the gist of it as relates to my question?

Both Gambling and Games (Poker) are useful.

[Anthony]

Realistically, most games that are played against the house are "make a Gambling roll. On a success, you lose money at a rate corresponding to the house edge. On a failure, you lose money faster than that". Even the ones that have an actual skill element usually only show up over a quite large number of games.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Realistically, most games that are played against the house are "make a Gambling roll. On a success, you lose money at a rate corresponding to the house edge. On a failure, you lose money faster than that". Even the ones that have an actual skill element usually only show up over a quite large number of games.

If it's a game where skill matters very much, a casino won't offer it for exactly that reason. You can't play poker (or for that matter bridge or go or chess or baseball) against the house. They may act as a bookie for other players, but it won't be the house employees playing, nor will any of the casino's money be riding on the outcome.

So yeah, there are no skills to be learned that will enable you to lose less against the house. The minimal loss strategy is usually too simple to be worth a skill point - it has to be since the dealer is playing it and it has to be one he can learn to execute flawlessly without too much training. You don't break even with it either because the house wins the ties or because there is a commission to play.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Anthony

On a success, you lose money at a rate corresponding to the house edge. On a failure, you lose money faster than that.

More complicated than that, because it is possible to win money in the short term. The house edge in most games is narrow, and so it's not all that unlikely to have an imbalance of results (not even necessarily a run) against the house. Not that there's a skill component here, but if you're using a single die roll to simulate the realistic outcome of playing casino games, if the table only has results for "lose a little" and "lose a lot", it's pretty inaccurate.

As the number of games increases, it becomes less and less likely to vary far from the expected value. This is probably a case where a dice pool mechanic would work better than 3d6-N, because you do want the roll results to get peakier and peakier.

Gambling skill might better be viewed as modifying the house edge than changing the probability of the results in a particular game. That is, you can learn the rules for optimal baccarat play easily, learn which bets are better or worse on a craps table with somewhat more work, get "good" at blackjack with a little effort, get "really good" at blackjack only with even more work, and then progress to the card-counting stage. None of that changes the way the dice or cards fall, but it does change your likelihood of walking away with a profit over a series of trials.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by otghand

Would card games such as Poker, Black Jack, Baccarat, or other card games typically played for money be the Gambling skill or separate Games skills? How about other gambling games such as Backgammon?

Any of them can be played with Gambling. Gambling skill is actually more than a little cinematic, as you can tell from its ability to change the odds of your winning a truly random game or to estimate the odds in any situation.

All of them except baccarat could be played with a Game skill in a less cinematic context. Most versions of baccarat are pure or nearly pure games of chance, so there is no skill to acquire that will improve your odds.

[Not]

You might need a point in Baccarat to know the rules, or possibly you could use a Gambling familiarity for that purpose.

The existence of a separate Gambling skill alongside various Games skills makes this confusing, but gambling is a separate thing. (You can bet on a coin flip, or on which bird will fly from a fence first, etc.)

[otghand]

The skill in many gambling card games is less in the rules than in the ability to read the other players and prevent them from reading you. You have to know the rules to bound the possible outcomes, but once betting and bluffing is involved those factors have to be considered.