Cinematic Whip Wielding?

[Beguiler]

In popular fiction, there's many whip wielding characters who can attack and parry at no hindrance or difficulty, attack with it in rapid succession, all without having to ready said whip at all after each action. DC's Catwoman, the Belmonts of the Castlevania series, Indiana Jones I'm sure of too...

The other night I was playing my old Neverwinter Nights on the Hordes of the Underdark module, and something just suddenly irked me. Why, my whip Weapon Master could both immediately attack and parry at no trouble and attack repeatedly in rapid succession with a whip, but in GURPS this would be wholly impossible.

I've really wanted to play such a shamelessly cinematic whip user of that same kind of capability in GURPS for a while. I've looked up various threads discussing the matter, (which I'd link here but I can't seem to quite kind them now) and there's been some basic ideas... Extra Ready, a cinematic technique designed by Kromm which would make Parrying with a Whip still possible after an Attack (that thread was talking about scythe wielding, but it's readily adaptable to whip skill still). Those work, but still don't achieve what I'm looking for in cinematic whip usage.

So I've come to the conclusion I ought to just make a bundled advantage of Rule Exemption (Whips are Unbalanced), Rule Exemption (Whips become Unready after Attack or Parry maneuver), and a Technique bought up fully to buy off the -2 penalty to parrying with a Whip. Which comes up to 5 points total in cost I think, if I recall correctly (I happen to not have my books with me ATM). Weapon Master (Whip) could possibly be an appropriate prerequisite to this advantage, but not necessarily; there's some who may have the ability to use a whip as such the above advantage would allow but not necessarily masters of the weapon, it's just a trait that's appropriate to the genre or whatever. The advantage is a definite munchkiny point crock, but if the character was taking it anyways it's because it's approved by the GM and appropriate in the game their running, e.g. four-color supers, pulp adventure, vampire slayers, dungeon fantasy, etc.

[McAllister]

Calling Rules Exemption and Extra Options "perks" was completely insane, if you ask me (and you posted on this forum, so you implicitly asked me). They're worth anywhere from 0 to infinite points either in the negative or positive direction. I would never, ever take seriously the idea that they're worth 1 point.

Let's compare Whipslinger to Gunslinger. I'm AFB ATM, but IIRC, Gunslinger is Weapon Master for guns, but it also give you an automatic Aim for all your shots except Move and Attack shots where it exempts you from Bulk... is that all? And it applies to a wide range of powerful TL4+ ranged weapons. Whipslinger is much more focused than Gunslinger, and you're much less likely to be able to kill people with it, so I'd say giving it the same price to act like normal Weapon Master while also exempting you from the requirement to keep Readying it seems reasonable. At that point, you just buy off the Parry penalty and you're ready to go. Of course, you're probably buying a whole bunch of other techniques to do cool whip things, and your contribution in a fight to the death is going to be limited, so if this is letting you underpay for getting around those limitations, I'm really not too concerned.

[Gef]

It's not munchkiny, whips aren't awsome to start with, except the reach. Remember, you can always take a defensive attack in order to parry on the same turn with an unbalanced weapon. If using styles campaign-wide, I'd pack all those traits into a cinematic whip style (and maybe require muleskinners to buy Social Regard). Otherwise, I'd build an Innate Attack with Melee (variable Reach) and possibly ST-Based Damage. -GEF

[Beguiler]

Originally Posted by Gef

It's not munchkiny, whips aren't awsome to start with, except the reach.

But-but, surely, Rule of Cool says Whips ARE good! All those cool snazzy tricks, like Skill Adaptation (Post-grapple techniques default to Entangle (Whip)) + Special Setup (Entangle > Necksnap)!

[Gef]

Originally Posted by Beguiler

But-but, surely, Rule of Cool says Whips ARE good! All those cool snazzy tricks, like Skill Adaptation (Post-grapple techniques default to Entangle (Whip)) + Special Setup (Entangle > Necksnap)!

Don't forget skill adaptation (return strike).

Good is relative, the weakness against armor is a big deal, unless armor is rare for some reason. Even so, tough clothing can be effective armor against sw-2. Sure, you can improve damage, but that takes points not spent on a higher chance to hit. Again, I'd look at innate attack for a truly cinematic whipslinger. (And the suffix -slinger doesn't automatically mean +20 points; price it for what you get.)

[Beguiler]

Originally Posted by Gef

(And the suffix -slinger doesn't automatically mean +20 points; price it for what you get.)

But that brings us back to my original price of [5]. [20] seems just about right as it's pricing it at the same as similar swashbuckling weapon capability advantages.

[Beguiler]

Hmm, nice, "Whipslinger". I like the comparison to Gunslinger and the pricing thoughts... but what about Heroic Archer? That's a single weapon alternative as well, and priced at 20 rather then 25 points. Would it be fair then to make this Whipslinger advantage 20 points as well (versus the 2 points, or 5 if we include my suggestion of that bundled bought off parry penalty)?

Also, I'd like to mention that Weapon Master (Whip) by itself isn't that great. The only significant benefits it grants is the damage bonus and the access to the related cinematic skills, while the other benefits are negligible or just moot , mostly due to the innate drawbacks of a whip; being Unbalanced and becoming Unready after any Attack or Parry maneuver. This new advantage would certainly be a better alternative that gives a Whip wielder the full benefits of what Weapon Master can give.

[Varyon]

A Perk to get rid of the Parry U is probably about right (EDIT: You could go as high as [2], as Striking ST +2 (Only for Defensive Attacks that negate U -80%), but [1] sounds about right to me). Technically getting rid of the -2 would require Enhanced Parry 2 (Whip) [10], but because it's a built-in penalty I'd be comfortable with your Hard Technique approach (honestly, a Perk - akin to Exotic Weapon Training - wouldn't be outlandish here).

All that said, a whip in a cinematic setting can be an extremely powerful weapon. It's sw-2(0.5) cr at a Reach of up to 7 yards (an archer is suffering -3 from Range there) by default. A cinematic whip wielder is going to always use the Crack technique, boosting that to sw(0.5), and in a cinematic setting whips that lack that poor armor divisor should certainly be available. With Weapon Master, you're almost certainly at the +2/die level of skill, so with ST 13-16 that means you're overall doing sw+4 cr. So, you're able to entangle, disarm at +2, and deal sw+4 cr damage to any foe up to 7 yards away. That's pretty serious, and a mere Perk to get away from the necessary 1-2 turns of Ready seems like too good of a deal to me. All that said, bows also have a requisite 2 turns to shoot - one to draw an arrow, and one to knock it. You can get away from this with Fast Draw (to get rid of the turn to draw) and Quick-Shooting (to get rid of the turn to knock), and it doesn't seem too bad to allow something similar for a whip. In this case, we'll allow for Fast-Draw (Whip) and let it count for the first Ready (this is all you need for a 2 yard whip). Quick-Whipping would then be two rolls against Whip-6 to first properly prepare the weapon, then strike with it. Weapon Master would halve the penalty, for Whip-3. In theory, you could also make a Heroic Archer variant for whips - I'd eyeball it at maybe [10], and it would halve the above penalty (characters with both this and Weapon Master would work at Whip-1), allow you to use Move and Attack (and its variants, Flying Attack and Acrobatic Attack) with the whip at no penalty, allows you to use the whip at Reach C with no issues, and halves any Fast-Draw (Whip).

[McAllister]

Originally Posted by Varyon

... in a cinematic setting whips that lack that poor armor divisor should certainly be available.

A whip is essentially hitting someone with the end of a flexible ropelike bit that's got a handle attached. By the time you've put something on the end of it that's got the weight to punch through armor, I'd be telling you to roll against your skill with a flail. I think that's a lot to read into "a cinematic setting."

Also, to snap a neck, I do not believe it is conceivable to accomplish this by wrapping something flexible around it and pulling with human-level strength... it is traditional to both turn the head and hold the torso so that it does not also turn, yes? Once you've Entangled a neck, I think by pulling on the whip you can either choke the target or drag them to you, but I'm not seeing neck-snapping.

[Gef]

Indeed, Technical Grappling is a must have for the cinematic whipster.