[RPM] Thoughts and clarifications

[Dalillama]

I just got Ritual Path Magic (I still don't have Thaumatology proper), and I had a thought about allowing single-Path controlling skills. For instance, Esoteric Medicine is equivalent to Thaumatology for Path of Body only; Path of Body defaults to it at -6, you can have path of body skill no higher than the lesser of 12+magery or Esoteric Medicine, etc. Linked to this is the idea of allowing certain Talents to function as Magery(RPM) for a single Path (e.g. you can learn Path of Body up to the lower of 12+Healer talent and Esoteric Medicine, etc). Does this strike anyone as likely to be unbalancing? Should there be any additional charge for Talents that function this way? (I'm leaning towards not).


On a largely unrelated note, and just to make sure that I'm getting this right:
Alternate rituals based on Create Pocket Dimension:
Phantom Apartment:
Spell Effects: Greater Create Crossroads + Lesser Create
Matter.x7 +Lesser Create Energy + Lesser Control Spirit + Lesser Create Spirit
Inherent Modifiers: Area of Effect.
Greater Effects: 1 (x3).
This spell creates a fairly nice apartment in a pocket dimension. The caster and any
being he brings along can access it. It functions identically to
“normal” reality in all respects and has its own self-renewing
supply of air. The apartment is furnished with a bed, a sofa, an armchair, and a coffee table. The kitchen area has a two burner stove and a small refrigerator. The apartment has electricity and running water, and has an invisible servant who takes care of most needs.
Typical Casting: Greater Create Crossroads (6) + Lesser Cre-
ate Matterx7 (42) + Lesser Create Energy (6)+ Lesser Create Spirit (6)+Lesser Control Spirit(5)Area of Effect, 7 yards (6) + Duration, 1 month
(11). 246 energy (82×3).


Personal Oasis:
Greater Create Crossroads + Lesser Create
Matter.x3+Greater Create Body
Inherent Modifiers: Area of Effect.
Greater Effects : 2 (x5)

This spell creates an alternate dimensional area that the caster can access and bring others to. The oasis is filled with sand. In the center is a freshwater spring and a date palm. The air is breathable, the spring inexhaustible, and the dates edible.
Typical Casting: Greater Create Crossroads (6) + Lesser Cre-
ate Matter x3(18) + Greater Create Body(6)+ Area of Effect, 10 yards (8) + Duration, 1 month


As I understand it, like the basic pocket dimension, these can both be renewed for 11 energy, is that right?

[Humabout]

Part One: Balanced in comparison to what? If that's how you decide magic works, then that is how it works. It will be more difficult to be a generalist if you use a different capping skill for each path, but you will get more specialists. It depends on what you want.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Humabout

Part One: Balanced in comparison to what? If that's how you decide magic works, then that is how it works. It will be more difficult to be a generalist if you use a different capping skill for each path, but you will get more specialists. It depends on what you want.

It's in addition to, not instead of. The idea is that Path of Body defaults to Thaumatology-6 or Esoteric Medicine-6, while Path of Mind defaults to Thaumatology-6 or Hypnotism -6, etc. So a generalist caster would buy Thaumatology and Magery, but a specialist might not.

[dcarson]

I'd be tempted to make it Thaumatology-6 or Esoteric Medicine-5 to give more reason to be a specialist.

[scc]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

It's in addition to, not instead of. The idea is that Path of Body defaults to Thaumatology-6 or Esoteric Medicine-6, while Path of Mind defaults to Thaumatology-6 or Hypnotism -6, etc. So a generalist caster would buy Thaumatology and Magery, but a specialist might not.

What's the advantage for a specialist to take Esoteric Medicine compared Thaumatology? Or importantly if you want to play a specialist mage the normally way to do it is to take Magery with a limitation, normally this is something like One College Only

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by scc

What's the advantage for a specialist to take Esoteric Medicine compared Thaumatology? Or importantly if you want to play a specialist mage the normally way to do it is to take Magery with a limitation, normally this is something like One College Only

Esoteric Medicine has uses outside of magic, namely in treating patients in more mundane ways. A healer, for example, would be better off using Esoteric Medicine, as it gives him the option of healing without needing to exhaust his ER and/or spend time gathering mana, at least with minor wounds and the like. There's also the fact that Thaumatology is VH, while Esoteric Medicine is merely H, giving a higher default for comparable point investment. It would likely also be appropriate to limit any Magery or Ritual Adept Advantages to One Path Only (probably -20% or so).

EDIT: This thread gives me an idea - much modern esoteric medicine focuses on taking various supplements in capsule form. A capsule charm might be interesting, particularly if it's one that takes a little while to be dissolved - you take the capsule, then once the outer layer has been dissolved (and thus the charm is broken) the ritual takes effect. You could get energy discounts for using supplements that are thought to have an effect similar to what you're shooting for (so an anti-cancer supplement might give a discount when used as a charm for a Restore Body effect that gets rid of the cancer).

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Varyon

A capsule charm might be interesting, particularly if it's one that takes a little while to be dissolved - you take the capsule, then once the outer layer has been dissolved (and thus the charm is broken) the ritual takes effect.

The chocolate coating makes it go down easier.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Esoteric Medicine has uses outside of magic, namely in treating patients in more mundane ways.

That's pretty much the idea. It's conceptually similar in some ways to the old Hedge Magic article from S John Ross' site, the idea that certain mundane or semimundane skills can be exploited for magical effects in the right circumstance or by the right person. I've worked out potential secondary governing skills for all the Paths but Magic, which shouldn't have one, on my view. The Path of Magic is what you learn when you're a sorcerer or the like, and dabblers need not apply. (This means that unspecialized casters can't use conditionals, but that's a feature, not a bug; I could see letting someone with Alchemy or Herb Lore default Path of Magic off of that for the purpose of elixirs only, though.)

Thinking of the Hedge Magic rules, it might be interesting to let any skill default to Path effects that are relevant to that skill with all the usual rules (meaning that, in practice, no one without Magery or some other special trait will probably be able to get anywhere, but they can try if they want to. Meanwhile, a wise woman or cunning man, with Magery 0, enough Occultism, Religious Ritual, or something similar to have an idea what kind of correspondences to use to help with the energy gathering/reduce cost, what sorts of tools and ritual spaces are good for a skill bonus etc, and maybe a couple of Ritual Adept perks, can enhance their simples and medicines to have greater effect, grow more and better herbs and vegetables in their garden than the space would ordinarily support and so on. This would lead to a subtly magical world with occasional deeply powerful adepts (people with Thaumatology, Path skills and so forth). If you want to keep it on the subtle, rule that people who aren't working from Thaumatology can only ever try to acheive Lesser effects, and only a real caster can get Greater effects.

It would likely also be appropriate to limit any Magery or Ritual Adept Advantages to One Path Only (probably -20% or so).

The writeups I've seen indicate that One Path Only is a -40% discount on Ritual Adept. I'd say that 2-4 paths would be -20%, and any more than that is no discount.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

I just got Ritual Path Magic (I still don't have Thaumatology proper), and I had a thought about allowing single-Path controlling skills. For instance, Esoteric Medicine is equivalent to Thaumatology for Path of Body only; Path of Body defaults to it at -6, you can have path of body skill no higher than the lesser of 12+magery or Esoteric Medicine, etc. Linked to this is the idea of allowing certain Talents to function as Magery(RPM) for a single Path (e.g. you can learn Path of Body up to the lower of 12+Healer talent and Esoteric Medicine, etc). Does this strike anyone as likely to be unbalancing? Should there be any additional charge for Talents that function this way? (I'm leaning towards not).

I don't see why you'd want to do this except for flavor and it's going to make magic a much poorer deal. What I would do if I were you is keep the Path cap as is, but allow a secondary skill replace Thaumatology - if better. So for your Path of Body example you could raise it no higher than Magery+12 or the higher of Thaumatology of Esoteric Medicine. As for Talents, if it brings the skill count of the Talent up it should increase the cost. So for Healer it wouldn't increase the cost (Healer encompasses 9 skills - adding more wouldn't break the threshold of a Medium-sized Talent, which is 12 skills or less).

Originally Posted by Dalillama

On a largely unrelated note, and just to make sure that I'm getting this right:
Alternate rituals based on Create Pocket Dimension:
Phantom Apartment:
Spell Effects: Greater Create Crossroads + Lesser Create
Matter.x7 +Lesser Create Energy + Lesser Control Spirit + Lesser Create Spirit
Inherent Modifiers: Area of Effect.
Greater Effects: 1 (x3).
This spell creates a fairly nice apartment in a pocket dimension. The caster and any
being he brings along can access it. It functions identically to
“normal” reality in all respects and has its own self-renewing
supply of air. The apartment is furnished with a bed, a sofa, an armchair, and a coffee table. The kitchen area has a two burner stove and a small refrigerator. The apartment has electricity and running water, and has an invisible servant who takes care of most needs.
Typical Casting: Greater Create Crossroads (6) + Lesser Cre-
ate Matterx7 (42) + Lesser Create Energy (6)+ Lesser Create Spirit (6)+Lesser Control Spirit(5)Area of Effect, 7 yards (6) + Duration, 1 month
(11). 246 energy (82×3).

Why do you have so many Create Matter effects? You only need one plus the Subject Weight - which you're lacking here. You're creating stuff. What I'd do for a fully furnished apartment is figure out how much a given Status costs and then multiple that by 5. So a Status 0 apartment probably has about $3,000 worth of stuff (at most). Then consult the Create Matter chart (p. 16 of GURPS Thuamatology: Ritual Path Magic); in this case it'll require a IQ-5 roll to visualize what you're doing and create properly functioning objects.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Personal Oasis:
Greater Create Crossroads + Lesser Create
Matter.x3+Greater Create Body
Inherent Modifiers: Area of Effect.
Greater Effects : 2 (x5)

This spell creates an alternate dimensional area that the caster can access and bring others to. The oasis is filled with sand. In the center is a freshwater spring and a date palm. The air is breathable, the spring inexhaustible, and the dates edible.
Typical Casting: Greater Create Crossroads (6) + Lesser Cre-
ate Matter x3(18) + Greater Create Body(6)+ Area of Effect, 10 yards (8) + Duration, 1 month

As above. You can use a single Create effect to make multiple items and you're missing Subject Weight again.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

As I understand it, like the basic pocket dimension, these can both be renewed for 11 energy, is that right?

You can renew them up to the duration for the spell, yes.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

I don't see why you'd want to do this except for flavor

Honestly, this is 90% of the reason; I just wanted to know if people who are more experienced with RPM saw some reason it was obviously broken in a munchkiny direction.

What I would do if I were you is keep the Path cap as is, but allow a secondary skill replace Thaumatology - if better. So for your Path of Body example you could raise it no higher than Magery+12 or the higher of Thaumatology of Esoteric Medicine.

Yes, that was what I meant, sorry if I wasn't clear. But for people who don't have Thaumatology, Esoteric Medicine is their only available default.

Why do you have so many Create Matter effects? You only need one plus the Subject Weight - which you're lacking here.

You're creating stuff. What I'd do for a fully furnished apartment is figure out how much a given Status costs and then multiple that by 5.

Cost of living? I'm not sure I understand what number you're multiplying by 5 here.

So a Status 0 apartment probably has about $3,000 worth of stuff (at most). Then consult the Create Matter chart (p. 16 of GURPS Thuamatology: Ritual Path Magic); in this case it'll require a IQ-5 roll to visualize what you're doing and create properly functioning objects.

Now, per the Duplicate Object Ritual (p. 42 of GURPS Thuamatology: Ritual Path Magic), adding a Lesser Sense Matter effect and having a set of apartment furnishings on hand to duplicate into the phantom apartment would eliminate this problem, right? (it says you have to be touching the object to be duplicated, would adding Area of Effect change that?)

As above. You can use a single Create effect to make multiple items

This is the bit that I was failing to understand.

So, fixed:
Phantom Apartment:
Spell Effects: Greater Create Crossroads + Lesser Create
Matter. +Lesser Create Energy + Lesser Control Spirit + Lesser Create Spirit
Inherent Modifiers: Area of Effect.
Greater Effects: 1 (x3).
This spell creates a fairly nice apartment in a pocket dimension. The caster and any
being he brings along can access it. It functions identically to
“normal” reality in all respects and has its own self-renewing
supply of air. The apartment is furnished with a bed, a sofa, an armchair, and a coffee table. The kitchen area has a two burner stove and a small refrigerator. The apartment has electricity and running water, and has an invisible servant who takes care of most needs.
Typical Casting: Greater Create Crossroads (6) + Lesser Cre-
ate Matter (6) + Lesser Create Energy (6)+ Lesser Create Spirit (6)+Lesser Control Spirit(5)Area of Effect, 7 yards (6) + Duration, 1 month
(11) +Subject Weight (3,000 lbs) (5). 120 energy (40×3).


Personal Oasis:
Greater Create Crossroads + Lesser Create
Matter.x3+Greater Create Body
Inherent Modifiers: Area of Effect.
Greater Effects : 2 (x5)

This spell creates an alternate dimensional area that the caster can access and bring others to. The oasis is filled with sand. In the center is a freshwater spring and a date palm. The air is breathable, the spring inexhaustible, and the dates edible.
Typical Casting: Greater Create Crossroads (6) + Lesser Cre-
ate Matter (6) + Greater Create Body(6)+ Area of Effect, 10 yards (8) + Duration, 1 month (11) + Subject weight 450 tons (estimated weight of sand and water filling half that volume) (10). 235 (47x5)


You said in a different thread (I can probably find it if necessary) that the Greater Create Crossroads effect in Create Pocket Dimension (and thus by extension in these two spells) is only good for the initial access, and you'd need a separate Create Greater Crossroads effect to get back once you left. Would it be doable within the RAW to attach the initial Crossroads effect to something, creating a gate that exists for the duration of the spell? For instance a tent which, when you set it up and walk through the door you go to the oasis rather than the inside of the tent, or a cardboard box in an alley that leads to the phantom apartment?

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Varyon

An interesting feature, and one that makes investing in alternate skills have more of a pay off, would be to allow appropriate charms to not be limited by Path of Magic at all. For example, the supplement charms I suggested, provided they have effects appropriate for Esoteric Medicine, simply require rolling against Path of Body - the price for Lesser Control Magic is still in effect, but the "roll against the lowest skill" rule isn't.

Note this should only apply to charms, not to normal conditionals, and the effect needs to be appropriate for the underlying skill. With Esoteric Medicine, a pill that cures cancer (Greater Restore Body) is fine - a pill that makes you grow wings (Greater Transform Body) not so much.

That also works; I was looking for a way to make charms available but not regular conditionals, and that would do it.