The Eyes Have It: Armor Chinks

[Varyon]

The most recent decapitation thread (as well as the focused defenses thread) started me to thinking about the Eye and Eye Chinks hit locations.

First of all, it's never really set well with me that all hit locations (with the exception of the Torso) have the same penalty to targeting their chinks. Using Tbone's suggestions from his Combat Tweaks Pyramid article alleviates some of this by letting the targets' mobility come in to play, but I'm also thinking that, rather than the penalty being a set -10, perhaps it should be -10 or the original location -3, whichever is worse. In general this will just mean -10 for everything, but it means the Eye hit location (-9) actually has a decent reason to be targeted over the Eye Chinks location (normally -10, but -12 under my proposed system). Also, things like Joints and Arteries/Veins would use -10 as their base (otherwise there's no reason to aim at, say, Leg Chinks, when Femoral Artery Chinks have the same location penalty), except where noted otherwise under Harsh Realism: Armor Gaps.

Another thought applies to those helmets that result in the character suffering from reduced vision (with no real benefit). I'm thinking potentially-eye-protecting face masks should come in 5 varieties: open, protective, restrictive, tunneling, blinding (better names welcome). In general, the amount of material difference between these is so little as to make there be no real weight or price difference (an Open mask probably has 90+% of the weight of a Blinding one).

Class 0: These offer no protection to the eyes at all, and if otherwise a "full" face mask grant only 5/6 protection to the face. They are markedly lighter (5/6ths the weight of a full mask) than the other forms (which are effectively all the same weight as each other). Useful for sneaky types who are largely using the mask to protect their identity.

Class 1: These offer minimal protection, but fully protect the face and are typically unrestrictive. They grant half DR against Eye attacks, none against Eye Chinks attacks. They penalize Vision rolls when the GM rules peripheral vision would be important (such as when keeping an eye out for guards while sneaking about, hence thieves/assassins preferring Open), but not enough to typically make any real difference in combat.

Class 2: These offer solid protection, but restrict the user's vision markedly. They grant full DR against Eye attacks, no DR against Eye Chinks attacks. While worn, such face masks impose No Peripheral Vision on the wearer.

Class 3: These offer excellent protection, but are so restrictive as to often be liabilities. They grant full DR against Eye attacks, and half DR against Eye Chinks. While worn, such face masks impose Tunnel Vision - as a result, they are typically only found on Great Helms (that is, helmets designed to be worn over other helmets, then removed when the fight is joined).

Class 4: These may not have even existed historically, but they are Class 3 helms with extremely small eye slits. They grant full DR against Eye attacks and cannot be targeted by Eye Chinks. While worn, they impose Tunnel Vision, -4 to Vision, and -2 to DX (can't see where you're going).

Class X: These masks lack any sort of eye slits. They grant full DR against Eye attacks and lack Eye Chinks, and their Class cannot be degraded. While worn, such face masks impose Blindness.

Class nP: These masks use a "mesh" type design, allowing the user to see with a large number of very tiny eye slits. Class P is a special version of each of the above - Class 0P uses a large mesh that allows full vision, Class 1P slightly restricts peripheral, etc. Use the numeric class to determine the protection granted (and penalties imposed) by the rest of the mask. For P, there are two types - thin and thick. A thin mesh is extremely weak, offering only 1/4 normal DR for its weight, and imposes a -1 to Vision (cumulative with any penalties from the numeric class). A thick mesh, as in the pictures linked by ArmoredSaint, offers 1/2 normal DR for its weight, imposes a -2 to Vision (again, cumulative), and makes targeting hit locations harder (-1 to hit) and Deceptive Attacks against the wearer more effective (additional -1 to defense, just like Reverse Grip or similar). Thick mesh is only available for Class 0 or Class 1 helms - Class 2P and higher are Class 4.
Class P helms are treated as Class 4 for purposes of targeting Eyes and Eye Chinks.

The idea behind the above is that the majority of weapons that can target the eyes are simply too large to easily get past a face mask. Weapons that normally grant a +2 against Chinks can treat eye protection as being one level lower (against a stiletto, Class 1 offers no protection, Class 2 offers half DR or none against Chinks, Class 3 offers full DR or none against Chinks, Class 4/P offers full DR or half against Chinks). Other weapons, such as bodkin-point arrows and many bullets, would get similar treatment (some very thin weapons, like low-caliber bullets or more needle-like stilettos, may be able to downgrade two steps).

I'm suggesting two modifications above, so let's add on a third one - as I've suggested elsewhere, on a defense that fails by 1 (maybe even 2) against an attack on the Eye, the Face or Skull is struck instead. Skull may be the most likely (ducking is probably the most natural response), so perhaps the Skull is struck on a failure by 1, Face on failure by 2? Additionally, I'd say on an attack against any sort of Chink (or any other sublocation, like Joints and Arteries/Veins), failure by 1 on the defense should probably result in the location itself being struck instead. In the case of Eye Chinks, go with failure by 2 hitting the Eye, failure by 1 hitting the Skull. It may be appropriate (particularly in cinematic games) to allow characters with appropriate Targeted Attacks to buy them up above maximum, but only for the purposes of first negating the innate defense bonuses these locations enjoy (from Tbone's article) via Deceptive Attack, then negating near-miss effects (take -1; miss by 1 is treated as a miss by 2; take -2, miss by 1 is treated as a miss by 3). This would play well with my Tech! suggestion.


Questions, comments, and criticism on any or all of the above is welcome. I think it shores up a few edge cases and, combined with Tbone's article, probably makes the Eye hit location more balanced (although I fear it may go a bit too far).

[The Benj]

It's been a while since I looked at the rules, but I think it IS an extra -3, to a Max of -10.

[JP42]

Just a few observations, and likely mostly my interpretations rather than anything from the rules.

This would have to be adjusted if you're using the harsh realism rules, where targeting chinks in armor for the eyes reduces DR to 0 by default, and no amount of protection can help that short of something solid like your Blind protection option.

Targeting chinks in armor can already only be done with impaling, piercing or tight beam burning attacks, so that should help some with the concerns about the size of weapons getting through the armor.

I'm okay with eyes being targeted only at -1 more through eye slits. They are, by definition, going to be in such a place as to effectively guide your weapon to the individual's eyes upon a successful hit.

I would not, however, allow one to target chinks in armor and veins or joints, except in the case of the Harsh Realism rules and targeting the joints of rigid armor (inside the knee or elbow, under the arm, etc), and even then only joints could be targeted, not the veins. You can either hit the vein at full DR or you can try to reduce the DR by targeting chinks or weak areas. I would, however, allow you to randomly hit the veins/arteries like any other normal blow might.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by JP42

This would have to be adjusted if you're using the harsh realism rules, where targeting chinks in armor for the eyes reduces DR to 0 by default, and no amount of protection can help that short of something solid like your Blind protection option.

These are made with those rules in mind - those Eye rules were originally a Kromm ruling before they made their appearance in LT, IIRC.
EDIT: Without context my statement above didn't follow. Because the Eye rules were a Kromm ruling (phrased as a clarification), I basically consider them to be the default rules, not something optional introduced in LT. Here is the entry from the FAQ.

Originally Posted by JP42

Targeting chinks in armor can already only be done with impaling, piercing or tight beam burning attacks, so that should help some with the concerns about the size of weapons getting through the armor.

Already considered, actually, although I suppose later swords like rapiers are already thin enough to downgrade by one step. It's honestly more balance than realism (albeit with some nods to the latter), as as it stands helms that restrict vision don't really give any benefit in exchange.

Originally Posted by JP42

I'm okay with eyes being targeted only at -1 more through eye slits. They are, by definition, going to be in such a place as to effectively guide your weapon to the individual's eyes upon a successful hit.

Agreed, but that -1 means that most fighters who are able to target the eyes are going to target the eye slits instead. I'd prefer there to be a real choice involved.

Originally Posted by JP42

I would not, however, allow one to target chinks in armor and veins or joints...

Understandable, but certainly it makes sense for "weak armor" and "here there be arteries" to have at least a little overlap.

Originally Posted by ArmoredSaint

What about this type of helm?

Embarrassingly, I didn't consider such helms in my analysis. That's kind of a special case of Blinding, in that it offers full protection, but simply penalizes one's Vision (and possibly attack/defense) rolls rather than imposing any specific Disadvantage.

To build such a helmet, I'd agree with Dan that the perforated sections would have reduced DR, effectively making the Face mask twice as heavy for the same DR (a lesser multiple may be appropriate). See Class P, later.


As a final note, I think I'm going to modify my classes (and rename them numerically), based on rereading the relevant sections of LT. Here's the "new" list, I'll update the old one in a bit:

Class 0: These offer no protection to the eyes at all, and if otherwise a "full" face mask grant only 5/6 protection to the face. They are markedly lighter (5/6ths the weight of a full mask) than the other forms (which are effectively all the same weight as each other). Useful for sneaky types who are largely using the mask to protect their identity.

Class 1: These offer minimal protection, but fully protect the face and are typically unrestrictive. They grant half DR against Eye attacks, none against Eye Chinks attacks. They penalize Vision rolls when the GM rules peripheral vision would be important (such as when keeping an eye out for guards while sneaking about, hence thieves/assassins preferring Open), but not enough to typically make any real difference in combat.

Class 2: These offer solid protection, but restrict the user's vision markedly. They grant full DR against Eye attacks, no DR against Eye Chinks attacks. While worn, such face masks impose No Peripheral Vision on the wearer.

Class 3: These offer excellent protection, but are so restrictive as to often be liabilities. They grant full DR against Eye attacks, and half DR against Eye Chinks. While worn, such face masks impose Tunnel Vision - as a result, they are typically only found on Great Helms (that is, helmets designed to be worn over other helmets, then removed when the fight is joined).

Class 4: These may not have even existed historically, but they are Class 3 helms with extremely small eye slits. They grant full DR against Eye attacks and cannot be targeted by Eye Chinks. While worn, they impose Tunnel Vision, -4 to Vision, and -2 to DX (can't see where you're going).

Class X: These masks lack any sort of eye slits. They grant full DR against Eye attacks and lack Eye Chinks, and their Class cannot be degraded. While worn, such face masks impose Blindness.

Class nP: These masks use a "mesh" type design, allowing the user to see with a large number of very tiny eye slits. Class P is a special version of each of the above - Class 0P uses a large mesh that allows full vision, Class 1P slightly restricts peripheral, etc. Use the numeric class to determine the protection granted (and penalties imposed) by the rest of the mask. For P, there are two types - thin and thick. A thin mesh is extremely weak, offering only 1/4 normal DR for its weight, and imposes a -1 to Vision (cumulative with any penalties from the numeric class). A thick mesh, as in the pictures linked by ArmoredSaint, offers 1/2 normal DR for its weight, imposes a -2 to Vision (again, cumulative), and makes targeting hit locations harder (-1 to hit) and Deceptive Attacks against the wearer more effective (additional -1 to defense, just like Reverse Grip or similar). Thick mesh is only available for Class 0 or Class 1 helms - Class 2P and higher are Class 4.
Class P helms are treated as Class 4 for purposes of targeting Eyes and Eye Chinks.

[JP42]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Agreed, but that -1 means that most fighters who are able to target the eyes are going to target the eye slits instead. I'd prefer there to be a real choice involved.

I have to wonder if the intent of the rules isn't to force targeting the slits, bypassing all DR, as the only way to hit the eyes through a helmet the covers the face.

Originally Posted by Varyon

Understandable, but certainly it makes sense for "weak armor" and "here there be arteries" to have at least a little overlap.

I think my issue with it isn't that they can't be the same sort of location, merely that you can't target them both at the same time - that you can target the chinks, but hitting the vein/joint/whatever underneath can only happen by random roll based on the location.

[The Benj]

Bypassing half of DR, but yeah.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by JP42

I have to wonder if the intent of the rules isn't to force targeting the slits, bypassing all DR, as the only way to hit the eyes through a helmet the covers the face.

Rereading the entry in Low Tech, I think you may be correct. Still, I rather prefer having the option of targeting Eye at -9 and Eye Chinks at -12 (at Skill 17, the former can be moderately reliably done with a Telegraphic Attack, while the latter would require a Telegraphic All Out Attack; at Skill 13, you need Telegraphic All Out Attack to pull off the former), in no small part because it allows for better differentiation of eye protection.

Originally Posted by JP42

I think my issue with it isn't that they can't be the same sort of location, merely that you can't target them both at the same time - that you can target the chinks, but hitting the vein/joint/whatever underneath can only happen by random roll based on the location.

That doesn't make any sense to me, but if you want to run things that way in your games, I've got no problem with it.
My own thoughts are that targeting Chinks means you know (or can tell) where the weak points in armor are, and targeting Arteries/Veins or Joints means you know (or can tell, particularly relevant for Joints) where these parts of the body are. If you know/can tell both, and there is overlap, it makes sense to be able to target this location. The additional penalty in this case isn't because of the small size of the hit location, but rather because you need to hit a specific location (normally you've got, say, a few places on the arm where Chinks apply, and a few places where you can target the Arteries/Veins; now you can only target the one place where the two overlap). Missing due to this additional penalty is likely to result in a hesitation, rather than an actual miss.

Originally Posted by The Benj

Bypassing half of DR, but yeah.

Eye Chinks (or slits) completely bypass DR. This isn't explicit in the FAQ, but I think was in the original Kromm post and certainly is in Low Tech (see LT101).

[JP42]

Originally Posted by The Benj

It's been a while since I looked at the rules, but I think it IS an extra -3, to a Max of -10.

Per B.400, it's just a flat -8 or -10, no indication of -3 more. If it was -3 more to a max of -10, arms and legs would only be -5.

[The Benj]

Originally Posted by JP42

Per B.400, it's just a flat -8 or -10, no indication of -3 more. If it was -3 more to a max of -10, arms and legs would only be -5.

Maybe I'm thinking of joints and arteries.

[ArmoredSaint]

What about this type of helm?

http://www.metmuseum.org/Collections...Helmets&pos=71

http://www.metmuseum.org/Collections...elmets&pos=135