GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?

PK · 01-18-2006, 11:34 AM

I just got back from my store liaison visit, in which I had a really interesting conversation with the guys there, that I felt was worth sharing.

We were discussion how the SJG card games (Munchkin, Ninja Burger, etc.) sold really well there, but GURPS didn't. In fact, the manager went over his list of the RPG books that sold in the double-digits last year, and GURPS wasn't on there. Predictably, they were almost all D&D books, with a handful of Shadowrun and (oddly) the new Mage game.

So we started talking about why they thought that was, and both of them were quite sure that one of the reasons is that the GURPS books, "though they've improved, just can't compete visually with most of the D&D books. They're not as attractive, and when I see people making the decision to buy, a major factor is how the book looks."

He handed me the new Book of Thrones d20 game (from GoO) and had me flip through it. I was impressed. Every single page made use of full color backgrounds and patterns, but not in a way that obscured the text. There were plenty of boxes and such to break up the text flow, and every few dozen pages, there'd be a full, two-page spread of artwork (some of it very nice, some average, but none was poorly done). I handed it back, and he continued, "People are picking up this book, flipping through it, and buying it on the style points alone. The fact that they already know d20 helps, of course, but the GURPS books just don't grab anyone. The new books look better than the old edition, sure, but they're still boring and the little bit of art that there is isn't that great."

Considering the number of people that rallied against the changes SJG made for 4E, I thought this was a really interesting point of view. This guy sees what people are buying and has a chance to find out why they're buying it, and if he's right, it seems like SJG might not have gone far enough in trying to improve the look of their products. Even now, flipping through Powers, while there are several decent pieces of art, a lot of it is just straight Poser and some is just horrible (like the fire-breathing Jesus on p. 26).

Is this having an effect on sales? According to one FLGS, the answer is a definite yes. Old-school GURPS fans might not mind a book with no (or bad) art as long as it's crammed with useful text, but any product lives on new blood -- the maxim of the business world is "grow or die". Does GURPS need to get more attractive?

EDIT: Please note that this thread is not intended to complain about quality (artwork or otherwise) of the GURPS books, but instead to discuss whether or not he was right about the direction that GURPS needs to head in. Is presentation as important (or even more important) in a gaming book as content?

sir_pudding · 01-18-2006, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev_Pee_Kitty

He handed me the new Book of Thrones d20 game (from GoO) and had me flip through it. I was impressed. Every single page made use of full color backgrounds and patterns, but not in a way that obscured the text. There were plenty of boxes and such to break up the text flow, and every few dozen pages, there'd be a full, two-page spread of artwork (some of it very nice, some average, but none was poorly done). I handed it back, and he continued, "People are picking up this book, flipping through it, and buying it on the style points alone. The fact that they already know d20 helps, of course, but the GURPS books just don't grab anyone. The new books look better than the old edition, sure, but they're still boring and the little bit of art that there is isn't that great."

The fact that Game of Thrones is a multi-million dollar bestseller doesn't have anything to do with it?

Qoltar · 01-18-2006, 11:49 AM

I work at a Game Store.

...and try to "push" GURPS (MIB wannabe)

But yeah the artwork look of the books could use a lot of help.

Hell, even bringing back Dan Smith - but doing his stuff in color could help a whole bunch. The Color stuff he did for Illuminati had tons of personality. Honestly , a lot of the 4th edition artwork feels FLAT when compared to other game books on our shelves.

- Edmund W. Charlton
"Qoltar"

~~Hex~~ · 01-18-2006, 11:58 AM

This issue doesn't really matter to those who are already sold on GURPS. There have been grumblings about the quality of the artwork in the 4e line and justifiably so. I do think that the visual presentation of books are a selling point. Anyone who doesn't think so is a fool. Even when I peruse my local book store...often it is the cover that attracts me to pick it up and read the back cover. I don't see why this would change just because its an rpg.

I can only imagine how many sales have been lost because GURPS 4e just doesn't compete that well with the impulse buyer...

Luther · 01-18-2006, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hex

often it is the cover that attracts me to pick it up

Did you remember the original 4e covers? :rolleyes:

~~Hex~~ · 01-18-2006, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luther

Did you remember the original 4e covers? :rolleyes:

No Luther, I had successfully scrubbed those memories from my mind...until... NOW!!!!!!!

Casey · 01-18-2006, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luther

Did you remember the original 4e covers? :rolleyes:

~.^ Phallic fight of the Technology Levels! I think a whole chapter of Traveller's Aide#69 Marital Aids of the Third Imperium wrote itself when I saw those covers. O.O

I've been tempted to pick up Game of Thrones despite being unable so far to slog through the first novel. It's very eye-catching and BIG. So far I'm trying to hold out for the Tri-Stat version so's I can crib from it for Tekumel: Empire of the Petal Throne. T:EPT also wins points for being eye-catching & different, though more conventional in presentation. A full-color T:EPT would have been amazing and really shown off the setting.

So far GURPS: Interstellar Wars is looking pretty good illustration wise though we've only seen the book equivalent of a movie trailer. I think one thing GURPS 3e had going for it was a fairly standard art style which worked. Okay it wasn't too shiny but there was a good bit of art. I take it 4e either doesn't have a standard art style, not "enough" art, or just a m3h standard art style? From what I've seen it's a mix of the last two.

Personally I think presentation is better that say a lot of art pieces. HARP’s a good example for me of a current game that works presentation-wise without have full color slick layout. The art’s b&w but there’s a good bit of it and it’s usually topical. See Harp Lite and harphq.com .

Bergjylt · 01-20-2006, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qoltar

I work at a Game Store.

...and try to "push" GURPS (MIB wannabe)

But yeah the artwork look of the books could use a lot of help.

The art isn't actually bad as such, I think. Just a bit plain.

Seems computer-coloured to me. Perhaps drawn on a digital tablet too? If so, I think the artist hasn't really been using the medium to the full. There's some amazing stuff you can do with a digital tablet and a bit of experimentation - like this guy: http://poisondlo.deviantart.com/

DeDiceManCometh · 01-20-2006, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bergjylt

The art isn't actually bad as such, I think. Just a bit plain.

You mean, a bit -- generic?

Bergjylt · 01-21-2006, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeDiceManCometh

You mean, a bit -- generic?

Heh. Point taken. GURPS is supposed to be the mr. Potato Head of RPG's. But does that mean you can't give it a distinctive graphic profile?

It's off to a good start with the iconic characters and the new front pages. But as the worldbooks get less generic, it might be good to have a less generic overall style. The D&D3 main books are sweating fantasy from every damn pore, rather than just featuring some fantasy pictures here and there. The difference is rather striking.

01-18-2006, 11:34 AM	#1
PK Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Dobbstown Sane Asylum	GURPS/4E... could be more attractive? I just got back from my store liaison visit, in which I had a really interesting conversation with the guys there, that I felt was worth sharing. We were discussion how the SJG card games (Munchkin, Ninja Burger, etc.) sold really well there, but GURPS didn't. In fact, the manager went over his list of the RPG books that sold in the double-digits last year, and GURPS wasn't on there. Predictably, they were almost all D&D books, with a handful of Shadowrun and (oddly) the new Mage game. So we started talking about why they thought that was, and both of them were quite sure that one of the reasons is that the GURPS books, "though they've improved, just can't compete visually with most of the D&D books. They're not as attractive, and when I see people making the decision to buy, a major factor is how the book looks." He handed me the new Book of Thrones d20 game (from GoO) and had me flip through it. I was impressed. Every single page made use of full color backgrounds and patterns, but not in a way that obscured the text. There were plenty of boxes and such to break up the text flow, and every few dozen pages, there'd be a full, two-page spread of artwork (some of it very nice, some average, but none was poorly done). I handed it back, and he continued, "People are picking up this book, flipping through it, and buying it on the style points alone. The fact that they already know d20 helps, of course, but the GURPS books just don't grab anyone. The new books look better than the old edition, sure, but they're still boring and the little bit of art that there is isn't that great." Considering the number of people that rallied against the changes SJG made for 4E, I thought this was a really interesting point of view. This guy sees what people are buying and has a chance to find out why they're buying it, and if he's right, it seems like SJG might not have gone far enough in trying to improve the look of their products. Even now, flipping through Powers, while there are several decent pieces of art, a lot of it is just straight Poser and some is just horrible (like the fire-breathing Jesus on p. 26). Is this having an effect on sales? According to one FLGS, the answer is a definite yes. Old-school GURPS fans might not mind a book with no (or bad) art as long as it's crammed with useful text, but any product lives on new blood -- the maxim of the business world is "grow or die". Does GURPS need to get more attractive? EDIT: Please note that this thread is not intended to complain about quality (artwork or otherwise) of the GURPS books, but instead to discuss whether or not he was right about the direction that GURPS needs to head in. Is presentation as important (or even more important) in a gaming book as content? __________________ Reverend Pee Kitty of the Order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Twitter) (LJ) MyGURPS: My house rules and *GURPS* resources. #SJGamesLive: I answered questions about *GURPS After the End* and more! {Watch Video} - {Read Transcript} Last edited by PK; 01-18-2006 at 05:58 PM. Reason: My point needed clarification

01-18-2006, 11:49 AM	#3
Qoltar Pike's Pique Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio U.S.A.	Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive? I work at a Game Store. ...and try to "push" GURPS (MIB wannabe) But yeah the artwork look of the books could use a lot of help. Hell, even bringing back Dan Smith - but doing his stuff in color could help a whole bunch. The Color stuff he did for Illuminati had tons of personality. Honestly , a lot of the 4th edition artwork feels FLAT when compared to other game books on our shelves. - Edmund W. Charlton "Qoltar" __________________ Take me out to the black Tell them I ain't comin' back Burn the land and boil the sea You can't take the sky from me.... A vote for charity: http://s3.silent-tower.org/TheKlingonVotes/index.html

01-18-2006, 11:58 AM	#4
~~Hex~~ Banned Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Candyland	Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive? This issue doesn't really matter to those who are already sold on GURPS. There have been grumblings about the quality of the artwork in the 4e line and justifiably so. I do think that the visual presentation of books are a selling point. Anyone who doesn't think so is a fool. Even when I peruse my local book store...often it is the cover that attracts me to pick it up and read the back cover. I don't see why this would change just because its an rpg. I can only imagine how many sales have been lost because GURPS 4e just doesn't compete that well with the impulse buyer...