RPM Energy Accumulation and Dispel Magic

[Nosforontu]

In another thread (are RPM conditional spells to powerful) a discussion began to develope towards the end of the discussion about the expected energy cost of a dispel magic effect, and rather or not casters especially pc casters are by default pushing their spell effects to add in additional energy to a spell to prevent it from being dispelled by a roughly equally skilled oppossing caster.

This does spark the question of just how many players/gms are prone with the RPM system to always or frequently cast spells that push up against their energy accumulation limits versus casting spells that have a lower energy cost but still achieve the truly desired goals of the spell.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Nosforontu

In another thread (are RPM conditional spells to powerful) a discussion began to develope towards the end of the discussion about the expected energy cost of a dispel magic effect, and rather or not casters especially pc casters are by default pushing their spell effects to add in additional energy to a spell to prevent it from being dispelled by a roughly equally skilled oppossing caster.

I've not found this to be the case, except when PC casters are knowingly going against other casters. Then they buff their spells as much as they can.

Originally Posted by Nosforontu

This does spark the question of just how many players/gms are prone with the RPM system to always or frequently cast spells that push up against their energy accumulation limits versus casting spells that have a lower energy cost but still achieve the truly desired goals of the spell.

Again, not much most of the time. I'd be tempted to make someone take a perk or some other trait to do this without stating it ahead of time. Maybe a magical Standard Operating Procedure (Girded spells) - all spells you roll using the quick and dirty rules are assumed to have additional energy (up to your safe threshold) added to protect them against dispelling.

[johndallman]

That's going to depend on the campaign playing style. Notably, if dispels are a common risk, then casters will worry about them. It may even depend where you are and what you're doing. Take Banestorm as an example: I'd worry a lot more about dispels if I was doing magical security work in Tredoy than if I was preparing to blast orcs in Cardiel.

[Terwin]

Also mentioned in the other thread:
* Dispel charms are probably made in a high quality lab with special components to get as many bonuses/discounts as practical.
This makes even somewhat risky buffs into things that are not unreasonable to dispel for an equally skilled caster.
* Bad buys are usually willing to make bigger sacrifices(villagers for example), giving them a big energy bonus for places where they would be useful, such as Dispel charms
* Non-casters can use a dispel charm(good opportunity to ambush the party while they re-cast buffs perhaps?)

[vierasmarius]

The other thread sparked a question for me, about changing duration and the energy required to dispel. Say you've cast a ritual that cost 30 energy, including 5 energy for a 6-hour duration. Before it expires you extend the duration to 2 weeks (10 energy). Is the ritual dispelled as though it's the original 30 energy, or the new total of 35 energy? Assuming the energy goes up, what happens when the ritual has been active for almost 2 weeks, and has only 6 hours remaining? Does it still take 35 energy, or is the cost based on its current duration, dropping it back down to 30 energy?

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by johndallman

That's going to depend on the campaign playing style. Notably, if dispels are a common risk, then casters will worry about them. It may even depend where you are and what you're doing. Take Banestorm as an example: I'd worry a lot more about dispels if I was doing magical security work in Tredoy than if I was preparing to blast orcs in Cardiel.

Important safety tip, thanks johndallman. ;-)

Originally Posted by Terwin

Also mentioned in the other thread:
* Dispel charms are probably made in a high quality lab with special components to get as many bonuses/discounts as practical.
This makes even somewhat risky buffs into things that are not unreasonable to dispel for an equally skilled caster.

Absolutely. When my PCs do it, this is exactly how they do it. Get as many bonuses as possible and dump as much energy in as you can. Seeing as this is something you do beforehand, I don't find it unbalanced in the least. That much energy could be poured into a attack or defense spell. As a dispel, you're limiting your targets right off the bat.

Originally Posted by Terwin

* Bad buys are usually willing to make bigger sacrifices(villagers for example), giving them a big energy bonus for places where they would be useful, such as Dispel charms

Yes. But this is true of any setting where a power can be enhanced by doing less than questionable things. It's a common bad guy vs. good guy scenario and doesn't really have much to do with RPM in general. The PCs can do the same thing - but they'd be despicable if they did.

Originally Posted by Terwin

* Non-casters can use a dispel charm(good opportunity to ambush the party while they re-cast buffs perhaps?)

Yes. Very much. And a excellent use of resources and mooks. Any good BBEC (Big Bad Evil Caster) is going to have a army of mooks and give their leaders a charm or two, just to wear down the PCs.

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

The other thread sparked a question for me, about changing duration and the energy required to dispel. Say you've cast a ritual that cost 30 energy, including 5 energy for a 6-hour duration. Before it expires you extend the duration to 2 weeks (10 energy). Is the ritual dispelled as though it's the original 30 energy, or the new total of 35 energy? Assuming the energy goes up, what happens when the ritual has been active for almost 2 weeks, and has only 6 hours remaining? Does it still take 35 energy, or is the cost based on its current duration, dropping it back down to 30 energy?

You can only extend the duration by as much as you originally had. So only 6 hours at a time.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

The other thread sparked a question for me, about changing duration and the energy required to dispel. Say you've cast a ritual that cost 30 energy, including 5 energy for a 6-hour duration. Before it expires you extend the duration to 2 weeks (10 energy). Is the ritual dispelled as though it's the original 30 energy, or the new total of 35 energy? Assuming the energy goes up, what happens when the ritual has been active for almost 2 weeks, and has only 6 hours remaining? Does it still take 35 energy, or is the cost based on its current duration, dropping it back down to 30 energy?

See p.22. A spell that's originally cast with 5 energy for 6 hours must be renewed at 6 hour intervals, you can't later add more energy to change the spell without completely recasting it.

[Varyon]

As for the whole Dispel Charm thing, I went through the book to see what all options a Charm maker would have that a delver* would probably lack. First off, the lab - the Charm maker can get +1 for using a Good Workspace Kit, +2 for using a Fine Workspace Kit, and up to +5 (or more) for making the charm in a Place of Power. Dispel probably isn't too uncommon of a Charm, so having a high-quality Grimoire for it would be appropriate, for at least another +2. Next up are some energy reductions. Ingredients are spelled out only for Potions, but I don't see a problem with using them for normal Charms, getting you -5% to -15% (I'm assuming you probably aren't going to spend more than 10% monthly income on a given Charm). Alternatively, get your reduction by using Decanic Trappings - which are far easier to manage if you're casting on your own timescale, rather than just before going into a dungeon*. Finally, let's look at some alternate energy sources. First off, you'll be using your own internal Mana Reserve, as you don't need to maintain it for casting 15+ additional spells and fighting off whatever you're about to go up against. After this, you can have some hirelings/allies/minions voluntarily give of themselves to give you some more energy - and if some of them have Magery, you can use their Mana Reserves (assuming you can absorb the skill penalty, but with your nifty lab and Grimoire you can probably manage). You can sacrifice an animal for some additional energy, or if you're evil or desperate you can sacrifice a person for more and/or blight some land. If you're lucky enough to have a magical artifact, you can draw some energy from that while you're at it. After this, you'll need to gather ambient energy, which is where that nice skill bonus from above comes into play.

All told, the Charm maker is probably looking at somewhere around +5 (or more) to skill and ~10% price reduction. For energy, he's probably got an ER of 6 or so (Magery 2), can probably convince 5 people to give of themselves (15 energy, assuming each burns 9 FP) and sacrifice a small animal (for maybe 5 energy). Following this, assuming a starting skill of 12, that'll give him a safe threshold of 29. He's probably not going to want to gather more than twice his safe threshold, giving him a grand total of 84 energy... which is enough (thanks to his 10% reduction) to cast up to a 93 energy spell.

Contrast this to the delver*, who might be able to manage a 5% reduction (carrying an appropriate amulet, say) and probably isn't going to have a Grimoire for each of his buffs. Burning ER isn't really an option if he's casting a lot of buffs, and neither is getting his friends to sacrifice of themselves, but we'll let him get 1 energy from each of these sources. He might be able to have one very small animal (1 energy) per spell. He's probably only going to have his starting skill of 12, but we'll be nice and give him a 14, for a safe threshold of 9. He's most likely not going to want to exceed this, but again we'll be nice and let him get away with using up to twice this, giving him a grand total of 21 energy... which is enough to cast a 22 energy spell. So, our Charm maker can manage more than 4x the energy of the more-skilled delver*!

*Here I'm using delver as the term for the mage who casts a bunch of buffs on his allies, and dungeon refers to whatever adventure they're going on.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Nosforontu

This does spark the question of just how many players/gms are prone with the RPM system to always or frequently cast spells that push up against their energy accumulation limits versus casting spells that have a lower energy cost but still achieve the truly desired goals of the spell.

I have rarely had a PC choose to add the extra energy modifier voluntarily. In my experience, that modifier exists simply to explain what happens to any energy accumulated unnecessarily that couldn't be spent on improving the spell (because sometimes you don't want the ritual to last longer, have a bigger area, etc.).

At most, if there's a fear of dispelment, PCs are more likely (again, IME) to try justifying packing multiple "buffs" together into a single larger spell -- not to just dump extra energy into it. But even then, it's rare in our games, perhaps because they're all quite competent without their buffs.

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

The other thread sparked a question for me, about changing duration and the energy required to dispel. Say you've cast a ritual that cost 30 energy, including 5 energy for a 6-hour duration. Before it expires you extend the duration to 2 weeks (10 energy). Is the ritual dispelled as though it's the original 30 energy, or the new total of 35 energy?

As Varyon pointed out, your energy cost is wrong, so let me rephrase your question:

"If you cast a 30-energy ritual that includes 5 energy for a 6-hour duration, then later spend another 5 energy to bump the duration another 6 hours, is it dispelled as a 30-energy ritual or a 35-energy one?"

The answer is a 30-energy ritual. It's the original ritual that's being contested here. The extra energy you're dumping in at regular intervals is just to keep it alive -- but technically you're not adding to the ritual so much as just "replenishing the durational energy to keep it going," if that makes sense.

(Of course, that brings up the idea of a house rule where a spell's effective energy cost for dispelling is based on how much of its duration is actually left. For example, a 200-energy ritual with one Greater effect and a year's duration would drop by an effective 3 energy after each month. That's a bit too fiddly for my games, but I could see it being a popular option for some campaigns.)

[Terwin]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Contrast this to the delver*, who might be able to manage a 5% reduction (carrying an appropriate amulet, say) and probably isn't going to have a Grimoire for each of his buffs. Burning ER isn't really an option if he's casting a lot of buffs, and neither is getting his friends to sacrifice of themselves, but we'll let him get 1 energy from each of these sources.

Why not use ER for casting buffs?
ER is even easier to fill than gathering the same amount of energy(no quirks and you can just start over when you start getting penalties for repeated attempts), and takes the same amount of time.

I can see not using sacrifices(unless you are planning to cook it for dinner anyway), but ER is a very reasonable thing to use, and if we stumbled upon a vacant place of power(or one that we just finished clearing out), I would be inclined to re-cast at least one or two of the more expensive buffs to take advantage of the situation(at the very least giving a nice long duration to make up-keep easier)

Also, once you get up to 16+ in the path, additional bonuses add less and less to the safe draw max as well.

Discounts from components and deconic trappings would make dispels more affordable, not to mention sacrifices(you eat dinner every day, right? And probably use bigger critters if you have minions to feed) and Grimoires providing a nice bump as well.

Edit: re-added the 'Burning ER isn't really an option' part of the quote that I accidentally removed