Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears

[Dalren]

According to Martial Arts pg. 115, the Born Biter trait makes a character count as a larger size modifier for the purposes of biting only. It lists possible modifiers of +1 to +3 and gives an example of a reptile man that would have +3. I'm interested in seeing how the GURPS community would classify:
1) large cats (lions, tigers, jaguars)
2) bears (black, brown, polar)
3) canines (gray wolf, german shepherd, great dane, etc).

I'm inclined to think that cats would either lack Born Biter altogether or only qualify for level 1. Bears will probably be either level 1 or 2. Canines will probably be level 2 or 3 (ignoring the less adapted breeds like the pug).

[vierasmarius]

Your numbers look good, though I'd reserve BB3 for creatures with truly exaggerated jaws like alligators and snakes.

[Anthony]

An awful lot of creatures have bigger bites for their size than humans. The max size object a human can bite is around 1" (SM -11), and even a small dog can likely bite a tennis ball (SM -8); a tennis ball is at the low end of that SM, and the smallest dogs can't bite one, so we'll call it born biter 4 for a typical domestic dog. Crocodile jaw length is somewhere around born biter 5 or 6.

[kirbwarrior]

I'd just check the actual lengths of those animals and see how hard they would be to hit. I think most dogs do have +2, while bears will have 1-2 based on which bear. Only some cats would actually qualify for a +1 (some cats could technically get +1/2, but that doesn't do anything).

[Dalren]

That pretty much seems to confirm what I was guessing. I'll go with Cats at 0, Bears at 1, and Dogs at 2. I'll reserve 3 for alligators and things of that nature.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Dalren

That pretty much seems to confirm what I was guessing. I'll go with Cats at 0, Bears at 1, and Dogs at 2. I'll reserve 3 for alligators and things of that nature.

I believe closer reading of the Teeth box in Martial Arts is in order. It isn't really about literal size of the mouth.

The big thing about SM and Biting/Grappling with the teeth is that you can not perform Neck Snap on foes of your own SM. Only those with SMs less than yours. You also can not target Veins/Arteries against your own SM.

Sadly, Choke Hold is not mentioned explicitly and this is more common than Neck Snap among animals. However, the text n the box does say that if you are of the same SM attacks on the Neck location only snare a flap of skin and I would not allow Choke Hold in such a circumstance.

SM+1 or more also allows for Grappling with the teeth as if using 2 hands and not just one which radically affects the chance of success.

So _any_ animal that grapples prey of the same SM and uses fatal holds on its' Neck should have a level of Born Biter. Also true for attacking Veins/Arteries. Those that Grapple with Teeth against larger prey should have 2.

Born Biter +3 (or similar natural SM) allows Teeth to Grapple the target's Torso or engulf the whole Head and should probably be kept for crocodilians, hippos and some sharks.

[Vaevictis Asmadi]

[Large] cats, with their shorter jaws, actually have stronger bites than canids and are especially good at choke holds even on prey larger than themselves.

Hyenas, thylacines, and crocodilians have even stronger bites, for their size, than cats -- possibly excepting gavials and tomistomas. I agree with including hippos and most sharks in that.

Orcas and other short-jawed dolphins could get the same level as cats.

I'd think canids and bears would have weaker bites, for their sizes, than cats.

I don't know about snakes -- isn't the damage they do better modeled with long fangs, plus poison where applicable?

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi

I'd think canids and bears would have weaker bites, for their sizes, than cats.

The bite force at the canines of essentially all large game hunting placental mammals (wolves, lions, tigers, jaguars, leopards, cougars, spotted hyenas, cape hunting dogs) is about the same when corrected for size (that is, when you plot bite force vs. body mass on a log-log plot, you get a straight line). Reference
Stephen Wroe, Colin McHenry and Jeffrey Thomason, "Bite club: comparative bite force in big biting mammals and the prediction of predatory behaviour in fossil taxa", Proc. R. Soc. B 2005 272, 619-625
Hyenas are better able to crush bone, but that is a function of their tooth and jaw anatomy at the carnassals, which are not generally important in predation.

Bears, which are not as predatory, have weaker prey-grabbing bites than the large game hunter placentals.

Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi

I don't know about snakes -- isn't the damage they do better modeled with long fangs, plus poison where applicable?

Snakes have very weak bites, but extremely flexible skulls that are remarkably difficult to detach once they grab ahold of you, with six rows of inward curved teeth and each row is independantly mobile. Damage is negligible except in the case of giant pythons that bite and use their neck and torso muscles to rip back, dragging their teeth through skin and meat (this is a purely defensive bite, and not used for predation). I've been bitten enough times to know! (although, fortunately, not by giant pythons. The monitors were bad enough.) Most of the time, the danger for snake prey comes from venom, constriction, or (in the case of non-venomous, non-contricting snakes) just being swallowed whole.

However, the original post was about levels of born biter, and actual damage caused is not correlated with this trait. Rather, it is how well you can use your jaws to grab someone else. For snakes, the answer is very, very well. I would tend to give them born biter 2 - even if their jaws are small for their size, they are so extremely flexible that they can wrap and distort around relatively large prey.

Luke

[Vaevictis Asmadi]

Cool! You seem to know a lot about animals.

If Born Biter is all about grappling rather than damage, then I'd give crocs a lot but none at all to thylacines -- the latter could get a better Tooth type instead to represent their hard biting force (based on biomechanical comparisons of their skulls with wolves and hyenas). But they couldn't grapple, their jaws were too fragile for that.

Gavials and tomistomas also wouldn't get Born Biter then, since they eat fish instead of large mammals.

Do hippos grapple? I know they ram and gouge.

What about Gila monsters, beaded lizards, and monitors? I've read that they chew or grind their prey to get the venom/bacterial/whatever into the blood.

Then there are lampreys. They should get, like, BB 4 or something!

I assume the animal stats on your website are 4E. Are they also intended to go with your house rules?

Looking at them, I noticed you gave sabre-tooth casts Born Biter 3. I would argue against that. What I've read is that their long fangs would have been really great for slashing or tearing out the throat, but too fragile for any grappling. I would instead give them the largest type of Teeth but BB 1 at most.

I would also reduce the advantage for aardwolves.

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by Dalren

According to Martial Arts pg. 115, the Born Biter trait makes a character count as a larger size modifier for the purposes of biting only. It lists possible modifiers of +1 to +3 and gives an example of a reptile man that would have +3. I'm interested in seeing how the GURPS community would classify:
1) large cats (lions, tigers, jaguars)
2) bears (black, brown, polar)
3) canines (gray wolf, german shepherd, great dane, etc).

I'm inclined to think that cats would either lack Born Biter altogether or only qualify for level 1. Bears will probably be either level 1 or 2. Canines will probably be level 2 or 3 (ignoring the less adapted breeds like the pug).

A cougar is SM 0. Cougars regularly prey on elk, which are pretty solidly SM 1. Since a cougar can throttle an elk with its teeth and jaws (and regularly does), this argues for born biter at least 2.

A bobcat is SM -2, a cottontail SM -4. Bobcats can grapple cottontails with their jaws. This argues for born biter of at least 2.

Wolves are somewhere between size -1 and size 0. They regularly grapple elk and bison by the limbs. Bison are about size 2, elk (as previously mentioned) size 1. This might be consistent with the description under "Your SM is no greater than your victim's", so doesn't give too much to go on. They can, however, easily engulf a jackrabbit (SM -3) in their jaws, as can coyotes (SM -1), which argues that wild Canis has born biter of at least 1.

A red fox is SM -2. A European rabbit or jackrabbit is SM -3. Foxes can grab rabbits and jackrabbits in their jaws, grappling their entire body. This argues for born biter of at least 2.

Bears are not as predatory as dogs or cats, so it is harder to come up with known examples. Can a female black bear (SM 0) grapple a man's arm or throat easily in one bite, engulfing the limb or neck? If so, born biter of at least 1. Can she grapple a coyote (SM -1) by the body, engulfing the body with a bite? If so, she gets born biter 2. I would tend to guess yes for the first, and no for the second, giving bears born biter of 1.

My estimates for various mammals, reptiles, and chondicthyes can be found on my Animalia web pages
http://panoptesv.com/RPGs/animalia/animalia.html
For your specific examples, I give felids born biter 2, canids born biter 2, and ursids born biter 1 (with possible exceptions because I don't want to go look through everything again).

Luke