Giant Math

[Johnny Angel]

I've been playing GURPS for a little while now, and I've started to get more comfortable with creating my own monsters and converting things from other systems. That being said, I still consider myself something of a novice when doing so. If the community would be so kind as to double check my math and methodology for something I'm working on, I'd greatly appreciate it.

One of the players in my current DF game is playing a cleric of Thor. He has received a message that he is expected to report for duty along with other members of the clergy to do battle with some Frost Giants to the North. So, with that in mind, I set out to create Frost Giants.

First, I had to decide on how big they were. I wasn't entirely sure with what I wanted to go with here, so I decided to go with something loosely based on Pathfinder's Frost Giants. The main reasons being that their dimensions and characteristics are available via the Pathfinder OGC and because (outside of GURPS) the group is familiar with Pathfinder.

The typical weight of a PF Frost Giant is 2800 pounds according to the information found here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/mon...ue/giant-frost
The same place also suggests 15 feet as the average height.

Now that I had some figures to work with, I turned to page 51 of GURPS Fantasy. I figured out what GURPS deems the average human weight (150 pounds) by reversing some of the numbers used in the section there. 480000/3200 = 150

I then divided 2800 pounds by 150 to see how many times heavier than an average human a Pathfinder Frost Giant would be. 18.66666.... which I rounded up to 19.

I then needed to figure out what the HP and ST multiple was by finding the cubed root of 19. Since I didn't feel like doing so by hand, I found a cube root calculator online here: http://www.calculatorsoup.com/calcul.../cuberoots.php
2.668402 is the answer I got. For simplicity sake, and because it seems reasonable to nudge giant ST up a little, I'm going to round up to three. According to GURPS, the baseline human has ST and HP values of 10.

10*3 = 30, so that sets the average Frost Giant ST and HP at 30.

I double checked this number by using the other method mentioned for finding typical ST values for a man-shaped creatures. I found the cube root of 2800 pounds, doubled it, and then rounded down. 14.09*2 = 28.18. Twenty-eight after rounding down. That's close enough to the value of 30 I arrived at to convince me that the math is producing consistent results so far, so I'll stick with 30. Again, I feel good about giving giants a bump upwards because it seems thematically appropriate. (Perhaps 28 is the racial average, but 30 is more common among combat savvy giants.)

The next step is to figure out how big these giants should be. Pathfinder says 15 feet, but I wanted to see how the GURPS math would play out; using page 51 of GURPS Fantasy and the information I have thus far.

The weight multiple of 19 falls between two of the values found in GURPS Fantasy, so I went with the higher value as the book suggest. Going with the higher value (again) also fits with my vision of giants. Doing so leads me to multiply the average height of a human by 3. The height range for an average human is 5'3"-6'1".

Multiplying by 3 gives a range of 15'9"-18'3" for Frost Giants; assuming my math is right, that gives an average height of around 17 feet tall. SM+3


...so what are things looking like so far....

Frost Giant

ST 30 HP 30
SM+3

[Refplace]

Looks good to me.
Another way to calculate is using Growth.
ST =5* heght in yards
18' tall giants would be ST 30 which again is close enough to your otherwie figured ST.

[Johnny Angel]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Looks good to me.
Another way to calculate is using Growth.
ST =5* heght in yards
18' tall giants would be ST 30 which again is close enough to your otherwie figured ST.

Thanks for the feedback. Everything looked right, but it's nice to have another pair of eyes to look at things.

[Dustin]

I'd be careful about HT 15 - enemies with HT that high often need to be pounded into paste at -HPx5 before going down. A HT 15 enemy just won't die.

Also, I like to give larger creatures some extra Move, maybe +1 per SM to simulate their larger stride.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Dustin

I'd be careful about HT 15 - enemies with HT that high often need to be pounded into paste at -HPx5 before going down. A HT 15 enemy just won't die.

Unless they are Minions (that go down with 1 HP) or Worthies (that go down at 0HP) but in those cases the HT isn't really relevant except for resistance. HT 15 might be right for a Named frost giant, but higher than that and it starts to get ridiculous. Maybe racial HT should only be +3.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Unless they are Minions (that go down with 1 HP) or Worthies (that go down at 0HP) but in those cases the HT isn't really relevant except for resistance.

Of course, not everyone uses those options.

[Johnny Angel]

I figured I started to post stats, so I might as well try to get the rest of the values. Where my first post was based on math, what follows is my best guess at filling in the rest of the blanks.

Thus far, I have ST 30 and HP 30 as part of the giant stat block.

Frost Giants don't seem to be any smarter than humans; neither do they seem especially dumber, so IQ 10 still seems right for average. Likewise, they seem to have more-or-less the same dexterity as an average human, so DX 10 as a racial average seems to fit.

Frost Giants do seem like they'd have far more HT than the average human. They're big and tough; they also thrive in a harsh environment. My gut feeling is 15. That seems slightly low. Comparing it to DF Ogres, I see that DF Ogres have 13. Comparing it to Banestorm Giants, I see that Banestorm Giants have HT 12. The Frost Giants seem to stack up pretty well there, but 15 still seems low to me for some reason. For now, I'll leave it alone and come back to it.


At this point, I have the following:

ST 30, DX 10, IQ 10, HT 15
HP 30, Will 10, Per 10, FP 15


While Frost Giants don't seem especially smart (or dumb,) I feel like they should have a bit more willpower and perception. Living in a harsh environment and having a warlike culture seems like it would breed mental toughness even if the underlying intellect is nothing special. Glancing back at Pathfinder for a second, I also noticed that they have relatively good will saves and wisdom.

12 seems like a good value for Will. It's higher than an average human, but not so high that casting resisted spells on them would be too tough. They're already harder to cast on due to their size, so giving them more defense against spells seems like a bit much if my intent is to make a balanced creature which has both strengths and weaknesses.

12 also seemed good for Perception, but I decided to go one higher and put it at 13 instead. Most of the things they hunt are smaller than they are, so my gut feeling is to give them a little help when it comes to perception.


DR 3 (Tough Skin) seems good.

So...

Frost Giant

ST 30.....HP 30.......Speed 6.25
DX 10.....Will 12.....Move 6
IQ 10.....Per 13
HT 15.....FP 15.....SM+3

Dodge 9 DR 3

3d thrust/5d+2 swing



This is a pretty bare bones stat block. For the finished creature, I'd probably add a great axe swing as one of the primary attacks. Levels of Temperature Tolerance seems fitting; as does combat reflexes. A mail shirt for DR 4/2 on the torso seems fitting; heavy leather for DR 2 on the limbs. A Jarl would have better equipment.

[Johnny Angel]

Frost Giant Warrior
ST 30, HP 30
DX 10, Will 12
IQ 10, Per 13
HT 15, FP 15

Speed 6.25, Move 6

Dodge 9, Parry 11,
DR 7/5 torso; DR 5 arms and legs and feet; DR 3 elsewhere


Giant Great Axe (15) 5d+10 cutting. Reach 2-4*
Giant Punch (14) 3d crushing. Reach C,1

Traits: Combat Reflexes, High Pain Threshold, Night Vision 2, Bad Temper (12), Temperature Tolerance 5 (-45°F to 85°F).
Skills: Two-Handed Axe/Mace-15, Brawling-14, Throwing-15, Wrestling-14
Class: Giant
Notes: Carries a large Great Axe (ST 30, 50 lbs, $625). Wears mail on the torso, heavy leather on arms and legs, and heavy leather boots on feet; both are factored into the DR listed above. The Axe is an unbalanced weapon and cannot parry and attack on the same turn.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

Frost Giants do seem like they'd have far more HT than the average human. They're big and tough; they also thrive in a harsh environment. My gut feeling is 15. That seems slightly low. Comparing it to DF Ogres, I see that DF Ogres have 13. Comparing it to Banestorm Giants, I see that Banestorm Giants have HT 12. The Frost Giants seem to stack up pretty well there, but 15 still seems low to me for some reason. For now, I'll leave it alone and come back to it.

Being big mean you should have a lot of HP, it doesn't mean you must have a high HT; for example Elephants have HT 12, as do Camels who "thrive in a harsh environment" HT 15 means they heal nearly twice as fast as a normal human (for their HP; they should heal nearly 3HP per day, whereas joe average human will heal 0.5HP per day), they will be unlikely to die before -5XHP or 180HP, they will be unlikly to lose consciousness before -1XHP, they will be very resistant to disease, if you give them High pain threshold they will be virtually immune to knockdown and stunning except from major wounds to the skull and vitals.

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

While Frost Giants don't seem especially smart (or dumb,) I feel like they should have a bit more willpower and perception. Living in a harsh environment and having a warlike culture seems like it would breed mental toughness even if the underlying intellect is nothing special. Glancing back at Pathfinder for a secon

12 seems like a good value for Will. It's higher than an average human, but not so high that casting resisted spells on them would be too tough. They're already harder to cast on due to their size, so giving them more defense against spells seems like a bit much if my intent is to make a balanced creature which has both strengths and weaknesses.

Thgis also makes them more resistant to influence skills. Have you considered Fearlessness instead?

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

12 also seemed good for Perception, but I decided to go one higher and put it at 13 instead. Most of the things they hunt are smaller than they are, so my gut feeling is to give them a little help when it comes to perception.

Per 10 humans can hunt rabbits ok.

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

Speed 6.25

Combat Reflexes and Speed 6.25?

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

Move 6

Maybe sell this down and buy Enhanced Move?

[NineDaysDead]

With ST 30 you have 9 times the lifting capacity of a normal human, but these guys weigh 19 times as much. You might want to increase Lifting ST to 44.

Looking at low tech Weapons and Warriors, you will want a ST of 42 to use an SM+3 Great axe. But since the damage from that is very high, you might just want to give them Huge Weapons (ST) 12 [12] to increase their ST for the sole purpose of avoiding penalties for insufficient ST to use weapons.