GURPS Basic Set 4E, Revised...?

[namada]

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[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by fartrader

Three questions come to mind with this title (feel free to discuss anything else about the topic as well, of course):

1. Has there been any discussion on such a thing, officially or not?
2. Do you think it's time/needed?
3. What would be added in the appendix and how?

I'm just curious what other folks thoughts are on the topic.

(1), a few threads here and there, none of it official. I am given to understand (and am also given to understand that my understanding may be wrong) that they don't intend to do a 4Er, but may consider doing a 5E in the mid 2020s if there is sufficient demand and the game/company still exists.
(2), No, I don't.
(3), -.-;

[Maz]

Kromm touched on it in the April 25 irc chat. The answer was "no", for more info find the recent thread on it.

[Beoferret]

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

(1), a few threads here and there, none of it official. I am given to understand (and am also given to understand that my understanding may be wrong) that they don't intend to do a 4Er, but may consider doing a 5E in the mid 2020s if there is sufficient demand and the game/company still exists.

This begins to touch on something that I've been wondering about for a few years now. What kind of sales do tabletop RPGs have these days (Does anyone have basic figures about how many copies of the Pathfinder core rulebook have been sold, for example?), and GURPS specifically? Obviously the market has contracted from way back in the 80's and early 90's (for reasons that have been gone over in other threads). But is there sincere worry/suspicion among SJG folks that tabletop RPGs as a whole will have effectively died out by the end of the next decade or so, or is there worry/suspicion that GURPS specifically will effectively be a dead product line by that point? (and that GURPS authors will simply be catering to the established market and the rare newbie.)

[Rasputin]

Originally Posted by fartrader

Three questions come to mind with this title (feel free to discuss anything else about the topic as well, of course):

1. Has there been any discussion on such a thing, officially or not?
2. Do you think it's time/needed?
3. What would be added in the appendix and how?

I'm just curious what other folks thoughts are on the topic.

1) Not officially, though there always threads suggesting it, like the other guy said. I think Kromm said that if the current state of the market continues, there won't be a 5e. If there is, the logical time is no earlier than 2020 (giving it at least a lifespan as long as 3e), and the main media won't be dead trees or electronic imitations thereof, but instead some sort of updateable app.
2) No, though it wouldn't irk me too much if done just right. The current GURPS problems are with presentation, not with missing options in Basic. There really should be full-game folders for Dungeon Fantasy and Space Opera.
3) Characters would ditch Combat Lite and add a couple pages of equipment, change the weapon and armor weights to match Low-Tech, maybe add a few techniques and some common modifiers to advantages/disadvantages. Actually, I know some techniques to add, and those are the Acrobatics ones from Compendium II. Campaigns would ditch Infinite Worlds and add computer rules from Ultra-Tech, trap rules from Dungeon Fantasy, chase rules from Action, Hiking rules from High-Tech, Telegraphic Attack from Martial Arts. The animals would be in the new Bestiary format that is in Dungeon Fantasy and have their attacks specified, and there would be a few common foes, like giant spiders and insane robots (see Savage Worlds Deluxe for a good list). There would be more example poisons, and some example diseases from Compendium II. Social skill rules would be clarified per Social Engineering. The Combat Lite and the Infinite Worlds chapters would be bonuses in the PDF version, and be free downloads otherwise.

[Dogma75]

Originally Posted by Rasputin

2) No, though it wouldn't irk me too much if done just right. The current GURPS problems are with presentation, not with missing options in Basic. There really should be full-game folders for Dungeon Fantasy and Space Opera.

Presentation is always a problem. In the market the product with the larger marketing founds will win over other products most of the time. If they are better or not doesn't matter. Presence in the media and presentation counts.
If I compare GURPS with other products then I have a diamond wrapped in an old newspaper if I compare it with other rpgs which are the beans using gift-wrapped paper with gold ribbons. Btw I like how the layout is made and the chapters are organized with colors in my hardcover copies.
Also GURPS misses evolving and continuous supported settings. Take a look at the market, the systems which have settings and where settings get new supplements every few months prosper or have constant sales numbers.
Please don't name the nWoD because I think this new marketing strategy (make new ones from old stuff) is like a shot in your own knee and a muck around of customers like me...

If there would be a 5th edition SJG should start with starter boxes like FFG and WoC. They run like hell here in Germany and also are catching young and new players even if the boxes are in English. The starter boxes should contain rules like the lite version with one or two settings which are ready to play. Not Ghost in the shell, Gurps in the box... ;-)
SJG could lead new customers directly to their system. And imho they would buy the more complex rules.

ICE had problems also after they lost their LotR Setting. Rules alone don't sell.

If I take myself as an example. I am 38 now, have family and not so much time on hand to read and construct a setting or work out villians, monsters and so on. You need settings...settings were you as publisher contribute in a short time much stuff to buy and for free.

Take Pathfinder fpr example (pls no discussion if it is bad or good). They made no completly new game, they took much of the old D&D versions but the secret of their success are the adventure paths. You buy 6 or seven small books and you have stuff for weeks and months. And they publish in a scary pace...

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Dogma75

If there would be a 5th edition SJG should start with starter boxes like FFG and WoC. They run like hell here in Germany and also are catching young and new players even if the boxes are in English. The starter boxes should contain rules like the lite version with one or two settings which are ready to play. Not Ghost in the shell, Gurps in the box... ;-)
SJG could lead new customers directly to their system. And imho they would buy the more complex rules.

Starter boxes are loss leaders, they lose money in the hope of making more later.
Like cell phones :)
Trouble is smaller companies without deep pockets do not have the budget to lose.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Starter boxes are loss leaders, they lose money in the hope of making more later.
Like cell phones :)
Trouble is smaller companies without deep pockets do not have the budget to lose.

The comparison seems totally off. Cell phones make money precisely because it is fashionable to buy the newest one every year or two. Follow-up stuff like accessories actually sell for very little.

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

The comparison seems totally off. Cell phones make money precisely because it is fashionable to buy the newest one every year or two. Follow-up stuff like accessories actually sell for very little.

Basic Model Cell Phones, at least in the US, are very often sold very cheaply or even given away by a Cell Company. The catch is that you have to sign an multi-year contract for Cell Service, usually with a big cancellation fee. Phone companies are always offering newer phones to people if they renew their contract.

So the phone itself becomes a loss leader, with the profit being made on the cell phone service itself. Sure you can buy the iPhone, or Galaxy, or whatever other expensive model it is that you want, but then you're not getting the "free" phone anymore.

[Dogma75]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Starter boxes are loss leaders, they lose money in the hope of making more later.
Like cell phones :)
Trouble is smaller companies without deep pockets do not have the budget to lose.

You are making the wrong approach Refplace. You should take a look at a starter box and the rule books together.
See the starter box as a marketing instrument to present your product and throw together the costs for the box and the follow-ups (the campaing and character books for example) then you will see that the cost-benefit calculation looks different.

I have a good example. Heidelberger Spiele is a mid-sized German game firm. They translate most of the stuff from FFG. tabletop games, lcgs and also RPG. First the W40K series, now the new Star Wars system.
They are translating the Star Wars box from FFG and sure as hell they have to pay royalities and have to pay for a translator. I don't even mention the print, the advertising and the shipping. They wouldn't translate it, if they don't reckon a margin...